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Driving abroad while made a SORN?

 
 
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Jim1064
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: Driving abroad while made a SORN? Reply with quote

There seems to be no clear guidance on the question if Vehicle Excise Duty has to be paid while driving abroad with GB plates.

I have checked the Vehicle Excise and Registrations Act 1994 and its amendmends and I can't find any mention of driving GB registered cars abroad. From the Act, it is very clear that VED is only due if the vehicle is used on a GB public road.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/22/contents

In Germany, the law is also very clear. It is allowed to drive up to one year in Germany with foreign plates "in transit" without the requirement to pay "Kfz-steuer" (their equivalent of VED).

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/kraftstg/

So, it would appear there is no need to pay VED, neither in GB or in Germany, for a GB registered car to drive on public roads in Germany.

(OK, to get to Germany I'd have to cross France and/or Belgium as well, and I have not checked those laws yet).

However on the DVLA website is says that if a car is driven abroad, it must be taxed.

https://www.taxdisc.direct.gov.uk/EvlPortalApp/a...me/questions/sorn

On the Gov.UK website it says that the vehicle must be and remain in Great Britain to make a SORN.

https://www.gov.uk/register-sorn-statutory-off-road-notification

Where does it say in GB legislation that VED must be paid while driving abroad, and that for a SORN to be made the car must be and remain in GB?

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Toseland
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is an extremely interesting question..


my OPINION (i hasten to ad this is all it is), is that the legal requirement for it to be SORN is that it is not stored on, or driven on a public road or right of way in the UK.

technically it could be argued that neither of the above conditions are true (as it is not even in the UK) and hence meets the criteria.

How would you go about getting it SORN and out of the country? i mean, the whole purpose of the SORN declaration if there is tax remaining is so you may claim the tax back from said vehicle, hypothetically, did you intend to send the tax disk back with required documentation after you leave the country? (and declare it sorn at hte same time)

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gadgetboy
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forget about all that. If you don't tax or SORN it they'll fine you. Simples.
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Nightbar
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Missing one small point here...

...Insurance.

Even if you have insurance (by some means) the fact that it is SORN will invalidate it if you are driving the car.

You could get local cover but only if the car is officially exported (which you must do if the car is out the country for 6 months or more). Expat UK based insurance companies may cover you for comp but many euro countries require local 3rd party as a legal minumum which also involves exporting the vehicle - then you pay the local tax.

Explain that one to the local overseas copper when he stops you (because he can!) and your insurane docs fail to come up to standard.

I wouldn't want you to be the one to find yourself the wrong end of a European Arrest Warrant.

Interseting academic question but practically flawed.

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Jim1064
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toseland - one could theoretically drive the car onto the channel tunnel or onto a ferry (i.e. off the public road while still in the UK), and then make a SORN immediately over the internet using a mobile gadget.

Nightbar - having paid VED or having made a SORN is no requirement for insurance cover (at least not mine). Example: it is allowed to drive untaxed to an MOT station for a test. Insurance would certainly cover this. Other example: having made SORN and putting the car into a barn in the UK will also not invalidate insurance (or, again, at least not mine!).

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scrunt
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Your vehicle must be in and remain in GB to make a SORN."

If you are using UK Insurance cover that allows you to drive abroad,
then the vehicle if stopped abroad it will still need to be legal in the UK.

(obviously you can have a vehicle in the UK on a SORN and no insurance,
or have Insurance on a vehicle with a SORN current,
but a vehicle with VED on needs the Insurance.
The Insurance Company will set the rules on vehicles requiring to be Legal if being used on road, or the Conditions of one in storage or for Off Road Use only.)

If you were in an accident abroad and found to have Invalid UK insurance then right there you have trouble.
If they checked or spotted VED expired while travling that would be interesting,
if checking and finding that the vehicle is Declared SORN in the UK
& being exported then thats another.
They could well consider it to be exported & not just travelling.
**Once out of GB/UK it is not on SORN just a vehicle with current UK VED paid.**

https://gov.uk/vehicle-insurance/uninsured-vehicles
"Your vehicle must be in and remain in GB to make a SORN."

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1098142

If you stick a vehicle on a Trailer to get it out the country & cover the Reg Plate, that will maybe or maybe not be getting checked out at any port.
If you remove from the trailer and then drive it on a Ferry or Tunnel and out the other side, ANPR is possibly going to pick up the SORN which dores not apply, and the o current VED paid on the vehicle,
thats if a Human person like HMRC is not Spotting you.
You are still in the UK at some ports across the Channel until you exit the port.

**It is not only Public Roads, it is in a place open to the public.**

People take Competition vehicles abroad all the time on trailers,
driving an illegal UK vehicle abroad on public highways is a whole different thing.

george
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Jim1064
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers but this does not answer the question:

Where does it say in GB legislation that VED must be paid while driving abroad, and that for a SORN to be made the car must be and remain in GB?

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Nightbar
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said, interesting academic question but it is only that and I say that after spending almost 7 years living in Europe.
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LlaniGraham
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you will find that somewhere in the EU Regulations it says that the vehicle must have currently paid duty in it's originating State.
I know that when a friend took his car to Crete, where they have moved to, the Greek Vehicle Registration would only accept the importation of his vehicle with a CURRENT UK VED disc, which he had to produce to swop for his Greek equivalent.
The only way for you to get a full and proper answer will be to ask DVLA.

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scrunt
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could probably find the relevant Legislation if you really want it.
But if its a case of arguing with some Police or other Authority abroad as to why you car should not be seized, then you will need to be getting the Gen from the DVLA.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show...SORN-while-abroad
This is all cr4p in this thread about 'restricting free movement' etc.
That is Free Movement of people where it applies not vehicles.

For those going out with Europe with vehicles.
http://www.rac.co.uk/travel/driving-abroad/carnet-de-passage
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mmgemini
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never mind the eu try it in southern Africa. It took us over quarter an hour to convince the police on the entry into ZA that the bit of paper in the nearside bottom corner of the windscreen and the number plate were related.

No UK road tax. No third party insurance.

The DVLA with the local police also call to addresses where a vehicle is kept while on a SORN to check that the vehicle is there.

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Xpajun
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mmgemini wrote:

The DVLA with the local police also call to addresses where a vehicle is kept while on a SORN to check that the vehicle is there.



They'd have a bloody hard time with mine then - currently on SORN locked in my garage with no old tax disc on it and no number plates either
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Wilbert Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xpajun wrote:
mmgemini wrote:

The DVLA with the local police also call to addresses where a vehicle is kept while on a SORN to check that the vehicle is there.



They'd have a bloody hard time with mine then - currently on SORN locked in my garage with no old tax disc on it and no number plates either


But when they get in there is a chassis number that they can use to check the vehicle out Exclamation Rolling Eyes

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Xpajun
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilbert Robinson wrote:
Xpajun wrote:
mmgemini wrote:

The DVLA with the local police also call to addresses where a vehicle is kept while on a SORN to check that the vehicle is there.



They'd have a bloody hard time with mine then - currently on SORN locked in my garage with no old tax disc on it and no number plates either


But when they get in there is a chassis number that they can use to check the vehicle out Exclamation Rolling Eyes



Haven't found one yet Very Happy though there may be one somewhere - we will see when the body comes off

And the plate under the bonnet is off....


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Quetzel
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And I like being difficult Twisted Evil Twisted Evil


Remember, the authorities can be difficult too! Very Happy

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Jim1064
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers, thanks for replies but I still don't have my answer:

Where does it say in GB legislation that VED must be paid while driving abroad, and that for a SORN to be made the car must be and remain in GB?

I've established beyond doubt that I can drive legally in Germany without having paid VED in the UK. My insurance is valid without having paid VED.

Why should I pay VED while the car is abroad?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Share please,

where you have confirmed that a EU State/Country registered motor vehicle can be driven on the public highway without paying VED or some other Duty in one or other EU State/Country.?

I also have Insurance that covers a vehicle that is not Taxed or tested if not being driven on the road,
but to be on the Public Highway and the Insurance to be Valid it would have to be road legal.
But if you say a UK vehicle can be driven legally in Germany without VED being paid in Germany or the UK, then one might well be covered by the insurance while on the public highway.

george
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Jim1064
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

George it says it here (for Germany):

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/kraftstg/

§ 3 Ausnahmen von der Besteuerung:
...
13. ausländischen Personenkraftfahrzeugen und ihren Anhängern, die zum vorübergehenden Aufenthalt in
das Inland gelangen, für die Dauer bis zu einem Jahr. Die Steuerbefreiung entfällt, wenn die Fahrzeuge der
entgeltlichen Beförderung von Personen oder Gütern dienen oder von Personen benutzt werden, die ihren
Wohnsitz oder gewöhnlichen Aufenthalt im Inland haben;

This basically says that foreign cars are exempt from the German equivalent of VED for the duration of one year, so long as the car is not used for commercial purposes and not used by a person who lives in Germany.

Nowhere in German law does it say that foreign cars have to have VED paid in their home country (and I have checked the entire document in the above link, which is an official goverment publication).

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Xpajun
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim1064 wrote:
George it says it here (for Germany):

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/kraftstg/

§ 3 Ausnahmen von der Besteuerung:
...
13. ausländischen Personenkraftfahrzeugen und ihren Anhängern, die zum vorübergehenden Aufenthalt in
das Inland gelangen, für die Dauer bis zu einem Jahr. Die Steuerbefreiung entfällt, wenn die Fahrzeuge der
entgeltlichen Beförderung von Personen oder Gütern dienen oder von Personen benutzt werden, die ihren
Wohnsitz oder gewöhnlichen Aufenthalt im Inland haben;

This basically says that foreign cars are exempt from the German equivalent of VED for the duration of one year, so long as the car is not used for commercial purposes and not used by a person who lives in Germany.

Nowhere in German law does it say that foreign cars have to have VED paid in their home country (and I have checked the entire document in the above link, which is an official goverment publication).


3 Exemptions from taxation: ...
13 foreign passenger vehicles and their trailers, get the
for temporary stay in the country for a period up to one year. The exemption does not apply if the vehicles
charge the transport of persons or goods are or will be used by people who have their
residence or usual abode in Germany;
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.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You don’t have to buy a tax disc if you don’t use or keep your vehicle on a public road (eg you keep it in a garage, on a drive or on private land). You must make a SORN instead.

Your vehicle must be in and remain in Great Britain to make a SORN.


and

Quote:
Vehicle abroad on a temporary basis

If you are taking your vehicle abroad temporarily, you must ensure that your vehicle is taxed for the whole duration you are away, as you can not make a SORN if your vehicle is outside the United Kingdom.


Therefore, if it's not in the UK it actually should not be SORN'd

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Jim1064
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those quotes come from the gov.uk website.

I don't believe this is actual GB law as it isn't mentioned in the Vehicle Excise and Registrations Act 1994 and its amendmends!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should give it a go and make a year case of it.
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