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Articulated trailer on my licence?

 
 
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Anderson
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:02 pm    Post subject: Articulated trailer on my licence? Reply with quote

I have been searching the internet most of this week and cannot find a definitive answer, I would be very grateful if someone could clear this up for me.
My idea is to build a semi-trailer, fit a 5th wheel to the bed of my Isuzu pick up and use it to tow my off road range rover about.
I currently hold post-1997 class B+E licence. I believe currently I can drive up to a 3500kg vehicle towing a 3500kg trailer (ball and hitch).
My questions are,
can I drive an articulated setup on my licence providing its below the specified weight limit.
and what would the weight limit be; Im thinking that it could then come under max vehicle train weight, and axle weights.

My reason for wanting to do this is for safety and towing stability, also I do like to be a bit different. I was also thinking of using a draw-bar front steer trailer, but Ive read conflicting comments on these whether they are more stable or not. Also i imagine it would be a nightmare to back into my drive.
Anyone ever looked into this before? or had a similar idea.

like this but with a flatbed.


Thanks, marc.
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Toseland
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1999 Suzuki Vitara

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/driving-licen...-what-you-can-tow

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/car-trailer-practical-test

those 2 sites give you weights and lisence catagories.




the method of hitch i do not think makes any difference.. (a trailer is a trailor whether its third wheel or towbar/ball connected) etc..


to clarify:

B = 3500kg vehicle with a trailer of no more than 750kg with a total weight (Trailer and vehicle) of no more than 4250kg (3500+750)

-or-

B = a trailer over 750kg (appropriately braked, etc) no heavier than the towing vehicle, and so the total laden weight of BOTH vehicle and trailer is no more than 3500kg. (eg a 2000kg vehicle, with a 1500kg laden braked trailer)

B+E entitlement means you can drive all of the above, but with a trailer up to 3500kg NOT exceeding the stated towing limits for the vehicle (safe working limits.. etc) and witha ppropriate breaking systems

length, and width i think would need to be considered..


with regards to stability.. i would say yes, as the weight is distributed more evenly over the rear axle, they are less pron to "the tail wagging the dog" soto speak due to this,

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scrunt
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Always interesting to see 'different'.

There are reasons that people do what they do everyday, day in and out & use a Car Transporter attached to a tow ball.
Cost, simplicity & reliability.
A 5th Wheel takes away that useful bed that you can carry stuff in.
**Standard trailers with standard hitches and electrics can be hitched to almost any vehicle any time and moved,
special hitches with limited availability of suitable vehicles are a PITA when you need someone to shift them and the right vehicle is unavailable.)

I am not aware of stability issues towing with a correctly matched combination of tow vehicle and decent trailer properly loaded.
Its the accepted way of towing in the UK for the types of roads the UK has.
Maneuvering and reversing is pretty easy with a traditional set up..

Question
What is the planned tow vehicle, and is it being home modified and is the trailer to be a home build?
http://www.fifthwheeleurope.eu
http://forum.difflock.com/userpix/17551_de164bf...5f8999b8612_1.jpg
http://forum.difflock.com/userpix/17551_T2eC16d...IZGnRQ60_35_1.jpg

george

EDIT,
I posted on the ready suitability of vehcles, as the post below was done,
and thats the exact point.
Limited vehicles to move the trailer.


Last edited by scrunt on Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:07 am; edited 2 times in total
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Xpajun
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reversing a steering trailer is not difficult once you get used to it - although some people will never get used to one Wink

There are many pages of information on fifth wheel caravans most giving you details of what licence you need to drive them (happens to be B&E minimum)


There is only one major problem with a 5th wheel and a older truck and that is breakdown - none of the breakdown services are able to tow a 5th wheel trailer
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Anderson
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the replies

I can see that not many people have this setup but there are a few. The method of hitch is what I cant find the info on. And whether it was acceptable with my licence to drive articulated, id be making the trailer in the workshop I work at, and probably make the 5th wheel detachable, so the load space can still be used. Im an hgv and plant mechanic so im familiar with couplings, and trailer designs.
Its just the legalities of it all, if the police see me driving that something out of the ordinary, chances are they may not know the legalities thereself's so id like to be sure I can disprove them!

like you say length and width would have to be considered, the max W + L for normal trailers doesn't include the drawbar and hitch, its just finding the legislation for an artic trailer and where id start measuring for the bed size. and whether it included right up to the coupling or up to the rear of the vehicle or even further back. Probably id keep it to a 2 axle to keep weight down, although I do have three.

I have an Isuzu TFS crewcab pickup 2.8td (like a LWB trooper but a pickup)
But cant seem to find the weight ratings for it, maybe as its an import I don't know. Id like to think it may be the same as a trooper. I would however be happy to upgrade the suspension and brakes or what ever it would need to uprate the weight ratings. as I quite like the truck.

cheers, marc.
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scrunt
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This might be of some use if you have not read already.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/...set/dg_200827.pdf

http://www.nissan-navara.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&...1028&start=10
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Xpajun
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Japanese imports have a gross weight on the plate not individual axle and train weights which you may find works out better for what you want to do
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discosteve
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: recovery of the vehicle/trailer a hgv recovery truck could do it and suspend tow the driving veh and tow the trailer still attached see this on a daily basis on the road

Steve

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Xpajun
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1988 Mitsubishi Shogun

PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

discosteve wrote:
Re: recovery of the vehicle/trailer a hgv recovery truck could do it and suspend tow the driving veh and tow the trailer still attached see this on a daily basis on the road

Steve


Not saying it can't be done Steve, just that the likes of AA, RAC Green Flag et al don't have the equipment to do it - they might be able to call in a recovery team but probably at extra cost to the member...
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discosteve
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Joined: 01 Jan 2012
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1997 Land Rover Defender

PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe it would be better to join a hgv recovery assistance group instead of rac/aa/green flag

Failing that at some of the American car/truck shows you see these type of rigs you could ask the owners which recovery assistance they use, hth

Steve

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scrunt
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It can be everyday moving that can be the PITA when you need a matching vehicle rather than just Hitching up to a Towball & plug in the electrics.

A Isuzu Double cab tows pretty well.
I take it the vehicle does not currently have a Towbar or already done any towing.

The latest Isuzu now can tow 3500kg,
i towed with one a few years ago and it was limited to 2800kg,
& i could not even move the 3500kg plated transporter when empty.

george
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cynic-al
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a 5th wheel flatbed towed by a navara that regularly comes down our industrial estate and I've seen them in the states with 3 Cadillacs on being towed by the super dutys etc. I believe some call it a swan neck.

Ice also looked into 5th wheel caravans to tow between the Isuzu and most are over 3500kg. I assume they work on the design balance that your towing upto 3500kg and carrying upto 1000kg. Most people fit assistor air suspension to help.

I can't see it being a problem so long as you keep the gross weight and dimensions of the trailer legal, have over run brakes (im sure linked would be fine too). let us know how you get on, it's something I would love to do, 5th wheel setups are more stable as your not as dependant on a good balance.

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Anderson
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Joined: 28 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, the direct.gov page there gives a good insight for some of the legalities and trailer specification.

If I did need a recovery, it would probably be on an hgv spec lift or lowloader. Our local wreckers will go nationwide to recover our trucks. So they should cover it albeit with a hefty bill.

My truck does have a towbar but doesnt look that great, has a ball mounted on flat plate which then bolts to the chassis. not seen one before, a bit odd.
Really need to find the weight(s) for it, ill have another scout around the engine bay. Failing that maybe try and contact isuzu dealer, see if they can help.

Things would be much simpler if i had a class 1. Id just buy an old daf 45 flatbed and be done with it!
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scrunt
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question
What Model, engine, gearbox, & year of manufacture is it.
My next door neighbour works as a HGV mechanic in an Isuzu garage
i can ask about the weights that might be the ones for your vehicle.

http://www.sherline.com/lmbook.htm
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ben_uk
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very popular over in Australia, they call them goose necks.

I see a lot of huge goose neck horse boxes aswell as caravans. Smile

The 5th wheel doesn't actually take up that much space in the pickup bed either. Wink
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scrunt
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It will obviously take up the centre of the bed in a small bed when towing. Wink
Only a consideration depending on how you use or not your pickup bed, and when you come to hitch and unhitch while carrying stuff.

This one looks useful.
http://www.owendcollins.com/transportation%20of%20plant/index.html
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( Gray )
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You want something like this: clicky link

Actually, these guys might be able to help - http://www.fifthwheeleurope.eu/en/article/welcome.html
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ferguson_tom
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My main concern would be the tow weight of the pick up truck. For some reason a lot of the older pick ups have a relatively low tow weight of around 2 tons. I am sure with a range rover and customer built trailer you would be well over that.

Not sure how correct this is http://www.carpages.co.uk/isuzu/isuzu_tf_pickup_4sport_12_04_02.asp
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Xpajun
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any vehicle 'plated' in the UK has a plate showing unladen weight, maximum laden weight and maximum weight of any trailer towed...

A standard caravan/trailer transfers it's nose weight of up to 100 kgs (150 kgs on some trailers if the tow vehicle can take it).

A 5th wheel caravan can transfer a lot more of it's nose weight to the tow vehicle - up to it's maximum laden weight. Therefore it is quite possible, legally, for a 5th wheel caravan of 3 tonnes to be towed by a vehicle that can only tow 2 tonnes if the extra tonne of the caravan's weight is distributed above the tow vehicle and thus is being carried as the load of the truck.

Bear in mind that on a weight check the weight is taken as a whole unit - not separated...

Grey imports from Japan are only 'plated' for the gross train weight so the problem doesn't arise in the same way Wink
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cynic-al
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the toyotas still are just over 2 tonne, the l200 and navara just under 3, the ford just over 3 and the Isuzu 3.5.

Older models were less. I'm not sure how the tow weights are approved as the vehicles are usually around 2 tonne empty 3 tonne loaded, although I guess that's only the same as a 2 tonne landy towing 3.5 tonne

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Anderson
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, been quite busy this week! Ive had another look for a plate but cant find any weights whatsoever, So dont even know what the total weight can be.

Scrunt, its an isuzu tfs 55. 1998. engine code is 4JB1-T. Dont know the gearbox code, but its a 4 wheel drive manual.

The americans do another type of hitch which i dont like the look of too much, but must be safe.
like this:

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scrunt
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This covers the weights i think.
Possibly only 1450kg Braked for yours , before they became 2000kg.
http://www.carpages.co.uk/isuzu/isuzu_tf_pickup_4sport_12_04_02.asp


Last edited by scrunt on Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dxmedia
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anderson wrote:
Sorry, been quite busy this week! Ive had another look for a plate but cant find any weights whatsoever, So dont even know what the total weight can be.

Scrunt, its an isuzu tfs 55. 1998. engine code is 4JB1-T. Dont know the gearbox code, but its a 4 wheel drive manual.

The americans do another type of hitch which i dont like the look of too much, but must be safe.
like this:



The gearbox is an mau-5
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Anderson
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If its only 1450kg that is shocking!
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vtec
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Articulated" just means any vehicle towing a trailer. Your car towing a trailer is an articulated vehicle. You could tow something like that trailer in your first post legally providing it is within the size limits of the law and weight limits of your licence. Your tow car would obviously need to be fitted with close coupled brakes; air would be the best choice (increases the max towing weight of the Defender to 4 tonnes too). The trailer still needs a mechanical handbrake.

Bear in mind a trailer like that won't be light - the ones designed for the American market are really heavy because they have tow vehicles that can handle it - for example some Ford Super Duty's can tow over 10 tonnes.

You could get a fifth wheel fitted in the bed of your Landy and tow something like that providing you stay within weight limits (with B+E before September 2013 your max gross train weight is 7500kg). If your off roader is 2.5 tonnes the trailer can be 1.5 tonnes with close coupled brakes or 1 tonne with overrun brakes.

Bear in mind if you break down somewhere tricky you'll need specialist heavy recovery - this can cost £500 per hour!

I think you should do it just for the cool factor, but personally I'd just use an A-max. Much cheaper and easier Smile
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jimmy62alan
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:27 am    Post subject: Articulated trailer on my licence? Reply with quote

I have a similar plan for a goose neck trailer and camper, I am building a stretched Land Rover 150" Hybrid out of a Discovery chassis, it will be a double cab and flat bed pickup with a slot in 3" goose neck ball. On research the 3" is the ultimate goose neck ball and gives maximum towing weight as well. As I am making the truck and the pickup bed I will inset the tow hitch so when not in use I can just pull it out and put it back in up side down for a flush fit and have full use of the pickup bed.
The air brakes are something I have never worked with but looking forward to getting to grips with it. I want to fit dually rear wheels and give me a wider pickup bed and give me stability while towing and allow more towage weight I gather.
I will be doing something like this but with a more substantial bed frame work and fit the 3" ball hitch. This towhitch is rated for 13,000 kg, it pays to play safe sometimes
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GNRK1500-B-W-Turnoverba...all-/300984307331
ALAN
Sheffield, England, UK

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Nightbar
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1999 Land Rover Defender

PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Best of luck mate and welcome to the forum!

I saw this a year or so ago at work...



... Cool

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w3526602
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

My "little learning" is 30 years out of date, but DVLC used to refer to the weight of the trailer "partially super-imposed on the towing vehicle". I think if more than 20% of the trailer weight was on the tow vehicle, a different licence was required.

My understanding is that a Cat.B licence can NOW drive, or drive-tow, up to 3500kg MGW, with no restrictions on the trailer being heavier than the tractor. But note that an early Discovery has a MGW of over 2500kg, so there is not much left for the trailer.

And a Cat B+E licence can drive 3500kg MGW, and tow 3500kg MGW. If you are aged 70+, you lost your C and D entitlements, unless you passed a medical.

VOSA are not interested provided the ALW of the trailer is within the tractors towing limits. But your driving licence refers to MGW. If you exceed the MGW entitlement, you ain't licenced, so you ain't insured


There is also the matter of seating restrictions on Cat.B and Cat.B+E licences. Can anybody under the age of 40 (ish) drive a 12 seat Land Rover, without taking a Cat.D test?

602

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jojo
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nightbar wrote:
Best of luck mate and welcome to the forum!

I saw this a year or so ago at work...



... Cool


It's up for sale now at Withams.

J
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