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Biodiesel or WVO?

 
 
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andypalmer1981
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Joined: 09 Oct 2011
Odometer: 119
Location: The Fens


2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:01 pm    Post subject: Biodiesel or WVO? Reply with quote

OK here we go. I've finally had enough of paying stupid pump prices for diesel. I have been experimenting with 50% diesel/50% SVO for 2 months, apart from during the cold snap, and encountered no problems. I used SVO as the volumes have been low and I wanted consistent fuel.

I am looking for opinions on the best way forward. I bought my Maverick with the idea in the back of my head but as far as I can see there are 3 routes I could take:

1. Buy biodiesel from a supplier at just over £1 a litre
2. Continue 50/50 with filtered WVO
3. Buy or build a processor and run 100% biodiesel

I am currently doing a lot of miles and getting through a tank (80 litres) a week so any savings would be warmly received. I'm not asking anyone to make the decision for me, I'm just looking for opinions and then with a bit more information I can decide the best way forward. Many thanks in advance for any input.

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ben_uk
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Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Location: Previously shropshire, now Melbourne Australia!



PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there is a 4th option. Cool

run 100% WVO. fit a twin tank. Wink
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andypalmer1981
Just got MTs


Joined: 09 Oct 2011
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2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was under the impression the Terrano II/Maverick couldn't handle above 50/50 veg oil. I believe its a Bosch IP and I know its IDI but I'm sure I read reports about veg oil percentages.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless you are very methodical, bio can be a fekin nightmare. There are quite a few drums in work that have gone wrong for people.

For WVO you need a solid supply. It's very competitive out there, I know. It's my job.
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scut44
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I take it if you are using 80 litres a week you are doing around about 600 miles a week.
(17.5 gallons @ 35 mpg = 612.5 miles)

If you were buying 80 litres of diesel at £1.40 a litre, that is £112 a week.
So maybe you are 40 litres at £1.40 & 40 litres @ £1.00,
so £96 a week for around 600 miles, about 13 hours of driving.

**Buying 80 litres of Bio for just over £1.00 a litres, so say £88 seems like your best option to me**

You needed to decide how many hours you want to give up to save maybe an extra £30 a week.

Ged will know the overheads of the materials, filters etc.
Then the collection of WVO, or the making of Bio.
Its a question of time you want or can afford to spend saving money but not earning money.

Question How many extra hours do you need to work to earn the extra £30 you need in the tank, or even to earn £60.
compared to how many hours can you give up to save yourself £30.
If in your work you can make £30 an hour, or even just £15 an hour,
it is hardly worth spending hours trying to save on your travel expenses.
Obviously JIMO.

george

PS
Why not buy a cheap diesel vehicle that does 55 mpg.
£88 of bio could take you 962.5 miles.

.


Last edited by scut44 on Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:15 am; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a very good point. The temp has a huge bearing on time. In summer I can process 100L in less than an hour. This time of year it can be over a week.
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scut44
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since i am sitting with Drumbuie with Millers chaser and thinking, (& doing mental arithmetic)
not yet just sitting/reclining.

48 weeks of 80 litres is 3840 litres required per annually.

Is the 600 miles or so a week, private use or business miles?
ie
is the vehicle insured for SDP & commuting or is it Insured to carry tools etc?

george

.
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andypalmer1981
Just got MTs


Joined: 09 Oct 2011
Odometer: 119
Location: The Fens


2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at the figures 80 litres may be a little over. I have a round trip to work 5 days a week of 80 miles (400 miles a week) plus maybe up to 100 miles a week for pleasure. All at 30 mpg. I make that 75 litres a week.

Unfortunately, due to my now ex-wife running off and leaving me with all the bills, I can't spare much to move closer to work which was 1 thought. I have 3 spaniels that I take to the fields and sometimes I have 5 dogs in the car so I'm reluctant to go much smaller. I'm salaried at work so short of getting a second job there is no possibility of extra wages. I'm already out of the house for 12 hours on workdays!

I would be prepared to spend a couple of hours in the shed at the weekend but I'd like that to be productive. The shed has heating so that may help. The main reason for this post was not wanting to shell out good money for a route that won't pay off.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gimme chance to finish wallpapering and ill try and help.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

forgive me if i`m teaching you to suck eggs here.

andypalmer1981 wrote:
Looking at the figures 80 litres may be a little over. I have a round trip to work 5 days a week of 80 miles (400 miles a week) plus maybe up to 100 miles a week for pleasure. All at 30 mpg. I make that 75 litres a week.


ok, ill put my nerdy head on here. your rolling yearly tax free allowance of wvo is 2499L. that means you can legally use 2499 litres without registering or paying duty. if you go over by one litre, you pay duty on the WHOLE lot. your allowance breaks down to 48L per week. if you use more in a week, you have less left ect. unless you are running 50/50, you will be going over your allowance. i must point out here, that you are responsible for record keeping. you have to detail how much and when you put the oil in. anyone reading between the lines here would realise the huge flaw in this plan, but who am i to say Wink

so you are using 50/50. AINT YOU Shocked

Quote:


I would be prepared to spend a couple of hours in the shed at the weekend but I'd like that to be productive.


more like 20 or so mins every night instead of one hit at the weekend.

Quote:
The shed has heating so that may help..


yup, that will help.

help the car straight to the scrappy.

i made this mistake myself.

WVO is made up of veg oil, animal fats, starch, water and crunchy bits. when the temp drops the animal fats and starch are the first to gel (thicken). your fuel system only wants the veg oil bit, and this is where filtering correctly is critical.

bear with me,this really boring crap will save you a fortune.

when you warm filter, some of the animal fats dissolve and stay suspended in the liquid veg oil. they will sit there quite happily being invisible until you put the oil in the car. then the difference in temp between the nice heated shed and the cold fuel tank is enough to make the fats "gel" now this will happen in your tank, in your lines, your filter, your pump and your injector lines. you may potentially end up with a solid lump of SPAM from one end to the other. i thought it sounded far fetched too until i spent an instructional few hours with a B&Q heat gun, some diesel and a lot of towing. cold filtering is best. my shed is unheated and at this time of year, i get the cleanest oilof all, as all the fats stay in the filters.


anything else you need to know mate?

do you have a filter system in mind?

do you have a supply of wvo?

do you know the different types of oil?

anything else, just ask.

Nat and Terence have both been doing this a long time and will both talk to you about long chain esters ect and i`ve cocked it up every way you can think of.

we`re here if you need us.
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parrotveasey81
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Odometer: 7480
Location: bradford on avon (wiltshire)



PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just to add to what ged has said its best to leave the oil to settle for as long as pos then onlt take from the top half of the oil as any fats and stuff in there will sink to the bottom.


also i would keep your diesel receipts with the veg useage records as if you get stopped its down to you to prove how much veg you have used and you need to keep your records in the car as well incase you get stopped

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andypalmer1981
Just got MTs


Joined: 09 Oct 2011
Odometer: 119
Location: The Fens


2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you everyone who has replied so far. I think I'll steer clear of bio for a start as I can't afford to lose a batch or ruin the car! I bought an old style diesel so I could use veg so I think thats the way forward. Long term if I knew the engine would take 100% I may try a twin tank system (obviously when I need less than 2500 litres a year) but for now I think its either WVO or trade SVO at 50/50.

As for WVO supply I have a few options although I may need to pay a little for some of those (but only 30-40p a litre). Filtering wise I have plentiful access to sealed top 200 litre drums for storage and mixing. I would welcome input on filtering methods. I was thinking in stages but I've never done it before.

One thing that springs to mind is which oil is best if I have a choice?

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Andy Palmer

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will post pics when I get in
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jojo
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Joined: 11 Aug 2007
Odometer: 5251




PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a quantity of av gas (aviation fuel - jet A1) that had been contaminated with a small quantity of lubricating oil (might have been old hypoid or steam oil as it ponged a bit). I used it in our 300 tdi Land Rovers with a drop of two stroke oil and a shot of Millers in it around the farm and it worked OK with no adverse effects and no difference in performance. The buggers wouldn't fly though - shame.

J
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andypalmer1981
Just got MTs


Joined: 09 Oct 2011
Odometer: 119
Location: The Fens


2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard av-gas is good! a colleague of mine has seen it used in an old Peugeot. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of that lying around either.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i know where there is 20,000L.

andy, just got in, gimme chance and ill post some stuff for you tonight.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

right, cant tell you the best way, as that is personal but i can show you my way.

at the start i have my storage barrel.



the oil just gets chucked in there and starts the dewatering and settling process by itself.


i then have an identical barrel with this in the top



wire mesh bin from ikea - £1:99. this is the start of my filtering


i then have my main processing area. three 210L drums raised on cut down pallets with two taps each.




the filters i use are 16" felt bags that are washable and last a while. they are available in various micron sizes and i get mine from a guy on ebay called filterbagman2. three for less than a tenner, fast delivery and double stitched. tell him Ged in Liverpool sent you. my personal choice is to run 16 giving me a processing capacity of 160L at a time. they are fixed into a sheet of ply that is fitted the width of the shed.



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andypalmer1981
Just got MTs


Joined: 09 Oct 2011
Odometer: 119
Location: The Fens


2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that it, just 1 filter? What micron do you use? That sounds like something I think I can manage. Is there any reason why you have 2 taps per barrel?
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Andy Palmer

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

to clean the filters, i turn them inside out and scrape the fats into a cubbie via this funnel.




these cubbies are stored until summer when they are refiltered, recovering more oil.



the barrels are (left to right) 50 micron, 10 micron and 1 micron. once the one micron barrel is full, i turn on the immersion heater for half an hour to aid final dewatering.

what you should then do is store the oil for a bit longer (about a month) before use, as more water and fats will drop out. Seeing as i have the best vehicle for WVO i just chuck it in.

its messy, and twice a year i steam clean everything. in between, i use degreaser from the pound shop to keep the mould down.

thats how i do it mate. a bit time consuming, but then again, my WVO is free.

as for different oils, avoid these





as they are a palm oil blend and solidify at suprisingly high temps.

any good quality liquid oil will do. indian takeaways and schools are best along with donut shops. Chinese produce the worst along with pizza places.

anything else, just ask Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andypalmer1981 wrote:
Is that it, just 1 filter? What micron do you use? That sounds like something I think I can manage. Is there any reason why you have 2 taps per barrel?


patience dear boy.

the two taps are for dewatering.

water is heavier than oil,so it falls to the bottom. you only draw fuel from the top tap, and water is drained away from the bottom.
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andypalmer1981
Just got MTs


Joined: 09 Oct 2011
Odometer: 119
Location: The Fens


2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I wasn't expecting quite so much information! Smile Sounds a lot easier than trying to make bio. As I can't see both taps in the photos how far up is the top 1?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i only have mine a few inches apart, as i spend time 5 nights a week in there and drain regularly, but 6" would give you about 20L underneath.

and theres loads more info, trust me. ive taken more shortcuts and cocked it up more times than i care to remember. my fuel system is now modified and the bitch runs great. right up until i got a bay leaf stuck inside a banjo bolt.

try finding that in the owners manual Laughing

there are others who do it different, and who guided me when i started, but the above suits me fine. you may find you need to be more strict with your settling ect.

mine runs on just about anything Cool
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andypalmer1981
Just got MTs


Joined: 09 Oct 2011
Odometer: 119
Location: The Fens


2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do you drive then? Just interested. It sounds like the Terrano/Maverick is quite tolerant but not the best from what I've read.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, i used to drive this............................



and now i drive one of these



a ssangyong musso. it has a mercedes 5 cylinder 2.9td engine that can be fixed with a hammer and a bosch fuel pump. ****** just keeps going, better build quality than a LR and drags my pikeyvan with ease.

i would buy another ssangyong tomorrow, i rate them that highly.
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andypalmer1981
Just got MTs


Joined: 09 Oct 2011
Odometer: 119
Location: The Fens


2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee

PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much for your advice Ged! I did test drive a musso before I bought my first Terrano but I found it sluggish compared to the Terrano and I do a lot of A road and dual carriageway driving. I did seriously consider one though, badge doesn't bother me too much! Does anyone out there have first hand experience of what percentage veg I can use in the Maverick?
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nyzel
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a banned freeloader
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zukenstein
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Joined: 12 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bit late I know but this site HERE is a fantastic site, every question you can think of has an answer here just about to start Bio production myself


link removed

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