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X-eng handbrakes
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Doc
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby wrote:
Doc wrote:
Diesel star Destroyer wrote:
£150 is not a lot.. but most Zuk owners are tight/broke so can see why some think its a lot..


Agreed. It would appear the majority of SJ and Vit drivers do things on the cheap. Would it be fair to say that if we weren't on a budget quite a few of us may have gone down the Land Rover route before we fell in love with The Rhino? The fact is bits for Zuks tend to be a hell of a lot cheaper and people want big lifts and tyres before handbrakes that work.


but arent handbrakes part of a MOT ?
id much rather have my car in one piece after parking it on a hill than have big lifts and tyres

perhaps im wrong


No you are absolutely right! That is my point, in a way it all follows the 7-spotlights-before-a-roll-cage school of thought
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xamtex
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rockwatt wrote:
after a lenghty phone conversation with Simon (xeng) and a chat at the 4x4 show last year he sent me an xbrake to design a modula bucket mounting arms and brake that all fit together. I relayed the isues with the brake and the fact that it's a semi engineering fit as the flange has to be true within 1 thou so if it's had a bash with a hammer to remove it then it's no longer any good. The cable mounting is also a bit tricky to get the caliper to sit square. but like Simon said above this is all down to cost as to keep the price down then it all needs to be laser cut and press braked for mass production with no welding due to liabilitys involved.
as for pads not lasting that's an issue on any disk brake that's dunked in mud on a regular basis. The nature calipers is that they back off to a minimum clearance that is less than most dirt particals so it's going to grind away even if you don't use it. and remembering that a prop disk runs 4 times faster than a wheel disk it's bound to die much quicker. IMO the only way is to put it in a sealed enclosure and for that your talking silly money.


so we might just as well stick with the standard drum brake and save 150 quid then???
in fact more because i dont remember having to change the shoes on my drum very often?just clean and adjust...
the disc does work marginally better when muddy...but the only time ive ever had confidence in a parkbrake was when i fitted a linelocker to the front brakes on 99.....sadly illegal for mot...but the best park brake ive ever had.

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rockwatt
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xamtex wrote:


so we might just as well stick with the standard drum brake and save 150 quid then???
in fact more because i dont remember having to change the shoes on my drum very often?just clean and adjust...
the disc does work marginally better when muddy...but the only time ive ever had confidence in a parkbrake was when i fitted a linelocker to the front brakes on 99.....sadly illegal for mot...but the best park brake ive ever had.


ummm in a word yes IMO the best setup would be pipe a master cylinder into you rear brake lines mounted behind the hand brake lever with a rod from the lever to operate it for hydro hand brake, then leave the cable in place to keep the mot man happy cos if the hydro fails then it goes to the cable brake.

Pad life will always be a problem when we efectively grind them away. and no brakes work very well in water cos brakes use friction and water is a lubricant.
Line locks are good for short periods but if you apply them when the brakes are hot then they slowly release as they cool so not good as a parking brake. They would work better on a separate system with a presure vestle in the line (pump to pressure up then lock release in the normal way)

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xamtex
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i put a linelock in my fronts....awesome for winching....weight transfer digs the fronts in and lifts the rears...fronts locked...cant beat it.
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xamtex
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i engaged the linelock on 99 once when i parked it...still locked 2 months later when i next fetched it out of the lockup.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pardon my ignorance , what is a linelock ?
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zukenstein
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what do you reckon?

Line locker to use as handbrake if req all year round and pop the pads back in the x brake to sail through the MOT?

I know the handbrake is an emergency mechanical brake for if the hydraulics fail but if trans drum or mud clogged x brake dont work too well anyway, line lock or maybe a boat anchor? Rolling Eyes

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xamtex
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

terence wrote:
pardon my ignorance , what is a linelock ?


linelocker is a hydraulic tap basically....fitted into the brake line...press the footbrake and turn the tap locking the pressure into the system.
keeps the brake applied under hydraulic pressure.

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xamtex
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

on 99 i ran a pipe from the front brake curcuit into the cab...into the locking valve...out of the valve back into the front brake curcuit....press brake....turn lever on valve 90 degrees...brakes stay on.
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xamtex
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?c...ujes5vrqete6pd3i6

the one i had was just a block with a lever...turn 90 to lock...this is a pukka job.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for that pete, neat idea .
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

now that i think about it ive seen someone with one in the clutch hydraulics to disable the clutch as a theft deterent.
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

terence wrote:
now that i think about it ive seen someone with one in the clutch hydraulics to disable the clutch as a theft deterent.


I have one in the 90 it's called a Meck lock


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samuraibloke
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Line locks are good for short periods but if you apply them when the brakes are hot then they slowly release as they cool so not good as a parking brake. They would work better on a separate system with a presure vestle in the line (pump to pressure up then lock release in the normal way)[/quote]

If you stand on the brake pedal hard before you engage the linelock, then even if the disk is hot there is more than enough pressure to hold it even after cooling. And after all when we're offroading you don't get much heat into the brakes anyhow. If you fit a pair of linelocks then that locks all 4 wheels.. can't get a better handbake than that!

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samuraibloke
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked the idea of the mechlock until i saw the price Shocked You could use a normal linelock and mount it in a steel lockable box .. Job done for a lot less money. I'm not tight but it seems a bit steep to me.
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ScottieJ
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hhhhhmmmmm this has drifted off topic a bit! Laughing Laughing well stayed on the topic of handbrakes but not x-eng ones Laughing Laughing that mech lock is stupid money for what it is, i agree with dave on the steel box idea!and i thought line locks on the brakes aren't legal on a road going car anyway?

I presume no one has tried to mod the x-eng handbrake to improve it then??? I really do think it will be pretty simple to get the standard design to work better and pads to last longer.

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samuraibloke
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think Linelocks are illegal, but you have to have a mechanical handbrake for MOT. If you have x-brake or a Drum T Brake to cover MOT, but use linelock as your handbrake, then pad/shoe wear is only an issue once a year for MOT. Don't know much about the x-brake, but if you have a drum, you could back off the adjuster between MOTs to limit the pad wear (I know this isn't advisable Wink ) Just a thought Smile
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ScottieJ
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fair enough! I will look into that then if i dont get this x-eng one working in a reliable manner!
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Tim Pink
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW I will me sorting my own disc brake on the transfer box for the racer. I will be using a hydraulic spot caliper & a L/R clutch master cylinder.
During 6 seasons of racing I have had the standard transmission brake fill with mud & start dragging too many times, excessive pad wear is a small price to pay instead of coming in from a lap with the hand barke on fire!
Total cost should be less than £100 with no cable issues.

Tim
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jeepmadmike
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mmm hydraulic hand brake some pass the mot some don't. Even if it's a seperate system as the handbrake should be mechanical

Does anyone know how well the landy x brake pads last? I'm thinking it might be a friction material issue?

Also maybe some tuffnoyl scrapers each side of the caliper would reduce crud entry

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ScottieJ
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After being lazy and giving up with this. I finally took my handbrake off to sort out, now it doesn't rattle, it returns the cable better and hopefully wont wear down pads at a stupid rate as they no longer rub the disc at all when released. all it took was a few conviniently placed/sized washers and it's all good. note the washers in between the pads cannot be any larger than that as they will catch the disc otherwise.

Ignore the cable route mods as they needed to be done to clear my dual tbox lever mount.


however on refitting I had a little accident involving the disc falling onto my face Laughing Laughing Laughing


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Twiss
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oooops... transfer box landing on top of you is the worst Wink
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Diesel Destroyer
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mech lock is nice.. but no good as an anti theft device..

You only need to undo one of the pipes or cut a pipe and it no longer holds the brakes

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have some potentially good news on this.

We have been developing an entirely new caliper which although entirely mechanical, is double acting (both pads move when you pull the lever) so doesn't need to sit on slides.

The caliper uses fairly standard Yamaha Motorcycle pads - which will cost about £10 and are available in much longer lasting Sintered material.

It is machined out of a block of HE15 Aluminium and anodized blue - so fairly 'bling'.

Our intention is to roll it out for Suzuki and Series Land Rover first, then make a lightweight 'racing' version of the Defender & Range Rover kits (as the whole brake kit is 5kg lighter and can use a much smaller disk).

Si

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ScottieJ
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes please!!!!!! have you got a rough price yet or would you rather wait until it's in production before you release the price?
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simonr
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No ideas on price yet as we have just been testing prototypes (which have cost us £300 each as one-offs!). The producttion cost of the calipers should be similar to the existing caliper, and will fall as volumes get higher.

The back-plate is much simpler (just a flat, 10mm plate with no folds) and the cable bracket is integrated into the caliper - so I don't imagine the cost will be much different to the current kit (fingers crossed).

I need to experiment to see how small I can make the disk - but I'm hoping for about 17cm diameter on all models. This will remove the need for the skid-plate as the transfer box will hang down further than the disk.

When the caliper and camera are in the same location, I'll post up some photographs!

Si

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ScottieJ
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds good, I might even have to I pre order one Very Happy Also I presume being a much smaller profile it shouldn't cause any problems with a set up like mine where the second T box lever is mounted to the sj box then?



Will it still be using a landrover handbrake cable?

And smaller disc? that will be good, it wont hurt as much if it falls on your face Laughing Laughing

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MudBarf
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

simonr wrote:
No ideas on price yet as we have just been testing prototypes (which have cost us £300 each as one-offs!). The producttion cost of the calipers should be similar to the existing caliper, and will fall as volumes get higher.


Did you get far with this?

I'm going to need a decent handbrake for my SJ soon...

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MudBarf wrote:
simonr wrote:
No ideas on price yet as we have just been testing prototypes (which have cost us £300 each as one-offs!). The producttion cost of the calipers should be similar to the existing caliper, and will fall as volumes get higher.


Did you get far with this?

I'm going to need a decent handbrake for my SJ soon...

fit rover 600 brakes they come with hand brake built in


and this topic is 2years old

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simonr
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MudBarf wrote:

Did you get far with this?
I'm going to need a decent handbrake for my SJ soon...


It worked, but proved too expensive to make. It worked well on my Suzuki, but didn't produce enough stopping force for a Land Rover.

We have moved on to a different design which should have wider application and solve the problem with the Land Rover brake rattling as well. I'm hoping for the first prototype this week.

You have to remember that its not just a case of knocking something together and turning it into a product. Because the potential liability is so huge, they require a lot of testing and development before they can be sold.

Rockwatt - did the bucket ever come to anything?

Si

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