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Crawler.. bike buggy..2 seater flat 4 variable diff pro warp
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Blue dragon
Just got MTs


Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Odometer: 180
Location: Midlands UK



PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I found a low mileage unit for good money. The old engine was never quite right, it burned and spat its oil out and fell to bits after only a few outings. Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad I think it had sat in a shed for a few too many years. Shocked Shocked The new engine went in easily and runs much better, I have picked up a few horsepower and the oil stays in. Very Happy Very Happy



I have made several other tweaks which I will post some pictures of soon.



Roll on summer Laughing

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gawxo
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roll on summer indeed!!!

Mark , I still owe you a return vist to give the L/W buggy a run , be in touch when a day is available , JP.
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nicks90
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1995 Land Rover Defender

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

any reason why you havent fitted some kind of anti roll bar / sway bar to the front and rear?
Looks like it could do with something to control the lean.
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Blue dragon
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Nicks 90

This is a very interesting point. If you look carefully you will see that I have shortened the front struts fron 14" to 12" and pushed the mounting points out a little further. I did this principally to reduce the mad CV angles on the front shafts, but it has had the additional benefit of increasing the roll stiffness on the front (which improves the turn in but also means I lift an inside wheel on exiting corners more now). On the rear I have increased the static negative camber to improve the wheel angles during hard cornering. The net effect is improved cornering but there is still quite a lot of roll in dry conditions. (2 pilots ended up in a hedge and 1 in a 5 bar gate trying to catch me Twisted Evil Twisted Evil )

The problem is I like the high wheel travel (probably 3 times a Pilot) and the relatively free articulation for off roading. If I wanted a pure flat racer I would definitely limit travel and further increase roll stiffness but I want both ! Shocked Shocked

One other possibility would be to raise the roll centres further but I think this would reduce the feedback, which is good at the momment.

I suppose detachable anti roll bars are a possibility but thats more weight and complexity.



So for now I remain the Leaning Green Machine ... Very Happy

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Blue dragon
Just got MTs


Joined: 12 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi 4x4 folks. I've been thinking again ..... Shocked Idea Shocked Idea Shocked Idea Shocked










Comments welcome Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

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clbarclay
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Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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1987 Land Rover Range Rover

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting idea using wishbones fixed to chassis and diff pivoting. However unlike the previous one with the wishbones attached to a pivoting diff, one problem will be the angle of the outer CV at extreme articulation and potentially limiting steering angle. Looks like it will take more time than the others to work out the optimum geometry.
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and the Lord help them caught helping there selves.
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teamidris
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Joined: 24 Feb 2008
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Location: Staffordshire UK



PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks right to me.

You break shafts at low speed, high torque, with high angles. That removes the bad angles and reduces stress. And there are more springs working in locked mode, which makes it stiffer.

Time to build as I see it Cool

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rockwatt
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Joined: 25 Jul 2007
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Location: North lincs



PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Won't the diff twist under acceleration when the pivot lock is off making the cv angle more extreme ?
We have just been discussing this in the unirock thread in the 4x4 section (maybe you read it and it got you thinking Smile ) and for it to work successfully you would need to separate the 2 suspension systems completely.
I have plans for a differant setup to active high articulation from ifs/irs that does include a pivoting diff but not like you have done it and there will be no need for a second set of springs.
Pm me and I'll send you my scetches if your interested.

Edit
After studying the drawings again then I can see the last one looks more promising ! With a couple of issues addressed, first is the torque reaction as I mentioned above and second the extra plunge needed in the inner cv's to accommodate the extra varying lengths of the shafts caused by the pivot in the diff. So the geometry would need some complicated calculations to minimise it due to the diff effectively swinging left to right. This wouldn't be such a problem on the rear as you can use 2 plunging cv's.
Normally and I'm sure your aware as you have built and independent already (more for those reading that are not so clued up) that the upper and lower pivot points of the wish bones should cross through the cv axis in a strait line on the outboard and inboard ends to minimise shaft length changes.

It's a good idea in theory and with a bit more thinking im sure you could make it work.
I have been looking into this for about a year after a conversation with dunk and recently went with a live axle with active independent at the ends but now I've binned that idea as there were a few issues.
the main one was the point of independent is one wheel is able to travel without affecting the others and if the wish bones are on a live axle then that advantage would be lost ! Now you have adressed that with the locking pin (but who wants to be thinking about locking the axle, and possibly having to find a flat area to do it in the midle of a race) but sadly inherited more issues in the process.
So I wend back to basics and addressed the real problem "the inner cv angles"
So here goes ! Off Center pivoting diff controlled by a link to the lower lower arm on one side only (set a way inboard to minimise tourque leverage on the suspension) and on opposite side of the diff an outer type high angle cv (this would be set so the cv pivot would be central to the axle)with a shaft coming from it to a carier bearing on a pivot controled by the other side lower wish bone.
The simplest way to picture it is 2 diffs joined by a cv that let's the axle bend in the middle with one diff just being a dummy.
Hope that makes sence.
So problem = cv's running at to higher angle! Fix= ad another cv and share the angles out abit.
I've got all the geometry down and just about to start building it ! And it made my head nearly explode but I got there in the end.

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Rocklobster gears / refurb cases /rockbuckets/SU manifolds/dual transfer boxes/ sj tcase to jimny cradles and speedo drives/bespoke machining / any thing made to a drawing.
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Blue dragon
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Joined: 12 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rockwatt

Thanks for your comments. Please post up your scheme, I hope we are onto something here !

I am not too worried about the CV angles and plunge because we have lots of freedom with the wishbones and where we pivot the diff. I can play arround with some ideas in CAD and see what we get.

I take the point about the rather crude latch to unlatch and then needing a flat spot to relatch but there are 2 things happening 1) the axle is released to pivot but also 2) the inner springs stop reacting to the chassis, meaning we get a dramatic reduction in roll stiffness when un latched which is excellent for trial mode.

Perhaps we could use a hydraulic centralising system. I know this is complication but I have been thinking about diff locking and I don't like the in or out performance of my current lockers, a more gradual hydraulic clutching would be much better. And I love my hydraulic steering. I always want to keep things simple, but the ultimate multi role vehicle may need some hydraulics.

Thoughts ....

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teamidris
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to force-centre the thing, go electric. With a left and right hand thread on the same shaft with nuts that meet in the middle.

Yeh, diff torque. It all makes it do weird interesting things. Thats why I think build it and see what it does. It doesn't even need a diff in it to see what it handles like initially?

But I like the properties of the two settings way much to suggest leading a simple life Very Happy
I mean, hard suspension for fast, soft for slow. Thats like the holy grail of XTC!





Or, as an outsider 'thrown in' suggestion, fit a real basic hyd drive, with the pump on the rear drive output flange and two wheel motors. That eliminates the diff torque and CV probs. But offers something that may be way more use to you in a confined build space, and thats the removal of the front prop shaft?

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rockwatt
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Joined: 25 Jul 2007
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Location: North lincs



PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

teamidris wrote:

I mean, hard suspension for fast, soft for slow. Thats like the holy grail of XTC!

I couldn't agree more ! That's the drive behind what I'm trying to do.

teamidris wrote:

Or, as an outsider 'thrown in' suggestion, fit a real basic hyd drive, with the pump on the rear drive output flange and two wheel motors. That eliminates the diff torque and CV probs. But offers something that may be way more use to you in a confined build space, and thats the removal of the front prop shaft?

For a crawler that may be feasible and a bloody good setup but for speed not so good. Getting tourqe to the wheels at speed and the heat it would generate would be a bit of an issue. The added advantage with a setup would be 2 pumps 2 motors running independently = locked diff then join the 2 drives with a valve (electric solenoid or lever) = open diff with pressure going to drive with least traction. Or part there of for limited slip.
But alas hydro drives don't like really high rpm.
And cost is another big factor.

__________________________________
Rocklobster gears / refurb cases /rockbuckets/SU manifolds/dual transfer boxes/ sj tcase to jimny cradles and speedo drives/bespoke machining / any thing made to a drawing.
email me for details

Find me on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/RockwattEng
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rockwatt
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Joined: 25 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edit
__________________________________
Rocklobster gears / refurb cases /rockbuckets/SU manifolds/dual transfer boxes/ sj tcase to jimny cradles and speedo drives/bespoke machining / any thing made to a drawing.
email me for details

Find me on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/RockwattEng


Last edited by rockwatt on Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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350 Vortec
Just got MTs


Joined: 22 Mar 2011
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Location: Ireland,East


1998 Nissan patrol

PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Blue dragon,great reading and brain exercising(i need it badly Laughing )My thoughts,the pivoting diff is a good idea and could be done easily enough,works well on many larger machines,i dont think you need pivot on pinion axis(might save some work but maby your thinking of weight saving etc on prop's) another thing to consider would be double cardan's instead of cv's,again heavy machinery use these reliably at severe angles and another thought,2 crown's rotating on pinion(Tatra style) eliminating joints on diff end,could still do wishbone design but use torq tube (or whatever system you'd desigh for drive support) as lower wishbone
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offroad 68
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Joined: 14 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure I have fully understud this but is it when in beam axle mode there is no actual suspension just articulation? If so why not have independant suspension in the normal way then a lockable pivot in the center of the chassis to allow the front and rear twist independantly.
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Blue dragon
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Joined: 12 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote






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stuvy
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1994 Land Rover Discovery

PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

top work there mate your really coming along with the new ideas! I cant wait to see how well it works.

Might i add you research the jackal off road army vehicles suspension i think youl like the hydraulic cam style suspension it uses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Supacat_Jackal.jpg

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58 Simoncelli
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Joe Hawkins
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read this thread from start to finish a few weeks back, took a while but makes for great reading, really impressed with both buggies and you're skills are unquestionably some of the best however its the original crawler that I'm interested in, wondered if you by any chance have autoCAD files on it, and if so the next (and I realise very cheeky) question would be would you send me them so I can take a closer look. Cheers, Joe.
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micky1
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seem to work on paper rather well.
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Blue dragon
Just got MTs


Joined: 12 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe

Reference: its the original crawler that I'm interested in, wondered if you by any chance have autoCAD files on it, and if so the next (and I realise very cheeky) question would be would you send me them so I can take a closer look. Cheers, Joe.

Yes I have autoCAD files and cutting profiles which you are welcome to (my only proviso is that I am not responsible for anything you then do with them). I suggest you PM me your e-mail or home address and I will send them on. If you are serious about building something like this I suggest you pop up to the Midlands and have a drive / take some measurements / photos etc. My guess is you will convince yourself you want one after about 10 minutes. Very Happy

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Joe Hawkins
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pm sent
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masterfabr
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blue dragon wrote:
Some final pics of the diffs. Modified bearing preload discs now with oil seals. Enverything went together well but it was tight !







If you could would you post more info on the differential mods such as how the cv cups are retained. Very interesting stuff you are doing.
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baloo
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yaa Masterfabr, what you doing this side of the pond, really nice to see you over here and Welcome aboard

Andy
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masterfabr
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm like a moth drawn to a candle when I see some really innovative stuff, done well and successfully.
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Blue dragon
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Masterfabr, welcome.

The diffs and shafts story is as follows:

1) I wanted small, light, aluminium diffs with high final drive ratios to slow the bike motor down. We don't have that many rear drive cars in the UK anymore and most of those are luxury cars with massive diffs.

2) I then discovered the front diff carriers from Suzuki Vitaras were perfect. They are small, and most people replace the aluminium nose for steel ones which means I got hold of their cast offs cheap. The ratio is over 5:1. The problem is they are mounted into a cast beam.

3) We have plenty of rear drive MGF sports cars here and the off side rear shaft is a descent length so my machine is based on 4 of these. That way I'm not making shafts which is always problematic or expensive.

4) A bonus was the discovery that some of the Rover cars here had Torsen limited slip diffs and the MGF CV's fit straight in (used to be the same company)

5) Another bonus was the discovery that the Rover centre sections fit into the suzuki nose sections (how lucky is that)



So in this picture the nose, pinion and crown wheel (not shown) are Suzuki and the diff itself is Rover and the shafts MGF.

6) The MGF ball bearings (drop gear box) had to be changed to the Suzuki tappered roller bearings to take the side loads from the pinion, this involved some lathe work. Also the stud pattern from the Suzuki and the MGF are different but both 10 bolt so some drilling and tapping was required. (I only use 5 bolts to loose more weight)

7) The origional Suzuki bearings retaining rings now needed to carry lip seals so I replaced the multi hole steel pressed rings for solid turned aluminium rings with seals.

Cool The hard part was welding up the covers to keep the oil in.

The CV's snap into place with C clips in grooves which end up the far side of the side gears. In the pic below the C clip is missing from the top CV cup and present in the lower. Notice I also machined off the back of the cups to give more seal clearence and I have shortened the cups to give more shaft angle:



I also machine bell mouth entries into the cups again to give more angle.



This may all seem like a lot of work, but all the parts are readily available old car parts which I have modified. I have not had to cut a spline or make a shaft. And the limited slip diffs make all the difference in the mud Very Happy Very Happy

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masterfabr
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How readily available are the components if a person from this side of the pond were interested in doing this also. I assume there are few ,if any, aftermarket upgrade components such as premium ring and pinions? Lots of upgrades here for the transfer case tho. We run turbo charged Hayabusa engines for the most part here. We make upwards, and some make over, 400 HP and in the range of 180 pounds/foot torque.Any guestimates on how tough the transfer case and diff assemblies really are? We need to be weight conscious but we also need "brute strength" as some of our desert cars approach 2000 pounds empty.
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masterfabr
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For our purposes we also need to run a Porsche 930 style cv. that's why I asked about the cv's you used and the axle stubs that are part of the cv. I'm guessing the steel used is not of any particularly high quality? I'd likely need to machine them custom from better steel and heat treat.. Just rambling on a bit for now. Thinking out loud. Embarassed
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masterfabr
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you say what years those diffs were used in the Vitaras? Having a bit of trouble finding them.
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baloo
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

masterfabr wrote:
Can you say what years those diffs were used in the Vitaras? Having a bit of trouble finding them.


hi Masterfabr

not sure what you are looking for, the diff housing is vitara/side kick as is the pinion and crown wheel, 5.125 and 4.8 being the most common but others can be found, the diff itself is coming out of a rover 620 turbo car gearbox, these have a torsen diff like the one in my buggy again from a rover car gearbox


Marks diffs are hybrids built from rover and suzuki bits, dose that help ?

Andy
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micky1
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So Vitara ali diff housings will hold rover diff or a 620 turbo diff?

what about the rear diff? can you use a front diff housing and diff also.

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masterfabr
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello??????????? Confused
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