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surge protection

 
 
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naughtyboy
Articulating


Joined: 01 Jan 2006
Odometer: 966
Location: west yorks



PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:38 am    Post subject: surge protection Reply with quote

can i fit a surge protector to my jump leads, am thinking of taking clips of it and fitting straight to jump lead clips?
keep getting asked to jump start people at work and am bit worried about doing damage to the newer cars.
one of them i didnt don had like a card and a button instead of keys.


cheers
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Winnet
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 03 Dec 2003
Odometer: 14725
Location: Aberdeen


1985 Land Rover

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think for newer cars they need to read the owners manual to see what the manufacturer says about jump starting. It used to be that you were meant to turn the lights and heater on full to try and disperse the surge around the car.

G

__________________________________
Bored......

All these questions and more after the tea break.
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mrcheese
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 14 Oct 2003
Odometer: 6339




PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can disconnect the dead battery and charge it from your vehicle for a few minutes before reconnecting it. The owner will need to know their radio codes and it may upset the alarm system.

More expensive jump leads are protected with MoVs (Metal oxide Varistors). These protect against voltage spikes. They are connected across the positive a negative terminals. It would be simple to buy some and make up some leads that clip across the terminals of the dead battery. If you want to go belt and braces you can permanently wire some across your battery terminals.

Go for one with a rated voltage of 18V. I just need to figure out the size.
There is not much energy in the transient so it will not have to be too large. But for a permanent fitting I would rate them to the automotive load dump standard.

I'll look out some suitable part numbers later. Zener diodes can also be used as they do the same job.
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nivapilot
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct procedure is :-

Both cars switched off, connect leads battery to battery, (f you cant get to the battery there WILL be connection points under the bonnet.

Leave connected for a couple of minutes to stabalise voltages.

Start the donor car and, wait a minute and start dead vehicle, leave running for 5mins, switch off both vehicles and disconnect leads.

Start dead vehicle, if it starts, leave running, if not, reconnect leads and run for another 5mins, until the dead car starts on it's own battery.

If dead vehicle will not start on it's own battery, replace it.

The thing that kills most ECU's and other electronics, is starting the dead vehicle, and then disconnecting the donor car, whilst the dead one is still running, (and no amount of surge protection will protect against that)

Never disconnect battery leads with engines running, it spikes 'em.
Never leave keys in ignition when connecting leads (alarm/immobiliser can shut down and lock car...or keys will lose their program)
Don't try and slave start a Mercedes unless you know what you are doing. SAMS unit is very susseptable and damages very, very easily, and is damned expensive to replace.
If someone has already tried to slave start then be extra wary, make sure the owner knows that damage may already have occurred.

Good luck out there, it's a minefield.
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nivapilot
Guest








PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Winnet says, most newer cars have a set procedure for boost starting....follow the instructions to the letter, don't cut corners.
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Hooli
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 09 Jul 2004
Odometer: 2217
Location: Doncaster



PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nivapilot wrote:
As Winnet says, most newer cars have a set procedure for boost starting....follow the instructions to the letter, don't cut corners.


+1

I can't think of the models but I know some have jumpstart terminals you must use as connecting to the battery really upsets the car. Yet another reason that wires are bad Wink

__________________________________
Proud Member Of The DCJC!
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mrcheese
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 14 Oct 2003
Odometer: 6339




PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some good advice from Nivapilot and Hooli. Especially about warning the owner. So I will keep it in mind for the future.

Assuming it is not an automatic, are there also risks when bump or tow starting a newer vehicle?

By the way, does anyone know where I put the new jump leads I bought this summer? Embarassed
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TheClunk
Off-Road Guru


Joined: 26 Jan 2009
Odometer: 1158
Location: Chippenham


1997 Vauxhall Frontera

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Always connect the earth lead to the engine of the dead car, not the battery. This will take the surge straight to the engine, avoiding most electrical systems.
__________________________________
'96 LWB Vitara. Totally standard. - Gone to new home.
97 LWB Frontera. - Standard. - Gone to new home.
www.darkplaces.co.uk
www.mine-explorer.co.uk
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Darrell
Off-Road Guru


Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Odometer: 1580
Location: South Oxfordshire. In the doghouse.


1987 Suzuki SJ413

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wonder how useful this would be. Must admit at work we did have a draper unit with a black box and crocodile clips which got broken. I had a look inside and there was next to nothing in it, which made me wonder why not just make it a little unit like this one.
http://shop.conrad-uk.com/car/maintenance-servi...ation/857474.html
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nivapilot
Guest








PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrcheese wrote:
Some good advice from Nivapilot and Hooli. Especially about warning the owner. So I will keep it in mind for the future.

Assuming it is not an automatic, are there also risks when bump or tow starting a newer vehicle?

By the way, does anyone know where I put the new jump leads I bought this summer? Embarassed


You should ONLY bump, or tow start, a vehicle that has a starter motor fault, or won't turn over fast enough to start itself.

A newer? car needs a full 12volts available to fire up the electronic systems on the car, before the engien will start, (early cars generated enough voltage as soon as the engine started turning).

Test the engine turns freely first by pushing the car in top gear, handbrake off, if engine turns ok, then safe to attempt tow/bump start.

Make sure that the person sat in the towed car knows what they are doing, or you may get a car coming through the back door.

Tow, and get towed driver to put in second gear and drop the clutch when you signal them to, get them to dip clutch when started and let you know by another signal, I get them to blast the horn and then pull up slowly.

I had the dubious task of tow starting a porsche carrerra one day on a stretch of backwater lane, late at night, driver had to get abck to London from outside of Andover, attatched the rigid tow pole and explained to the driver what I wanted him to do and set off, I signalled him and he dropped the clutch....nothing....after a further two attempts, I was getting very dispondant and thought I was going to have to put it on a truck, also getting near the end of the lane, about 100yrds ahead was a sharp right turn up another lane and a sharp left over a small stream bridge, he says, "would it help if I turn the immobiliser off?"....welll after biting my toungue, he turned it off and we tried again........tow, drop clutch, engine started....he revved the damn thing and the poor old Renault van doing the towing was pushed up the road at a rapid rate of knots with my foot pressing the brake harder and harder and starting to scream out of the window.......I don't know whether it was the scream or he suddenly remembered he needed to dip the clutch, but dip it he did, and off he went leaving me to clear the smell out of the cab 10yrds from the turn.. :-&

I have looked and can't see your jump leads Mr Cheese... Laughing
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mrcheese
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 14 Oct 2003
Odometer: 6339




PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. All noted.
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jeepmadmike
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 08 May 2005
Odometer: 4573
Location: between 6000+7000 rpm and Devon



PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say surge protection when using jump leads is unnecessary

The real problems are
reversed polarity (can easily cause damage to electronics- but if the cars designed correctly it should just blow fuses) in danger is batteries exploding!

Or jump starting a 12v car from 24v

All the damage I have ever looked at has been caused by people either clipping jump lead earths to the wrong thing or shorting the positive against electronics in metallic boxes

__________________________________
Land Rovers are the root of all evil!

Now i have gone and bought a D4!

one day i might buy a 86" series one like my dad had when i was a boy.
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