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wheelspinner Off-Road Guru
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Odometer: 1019 Location: Burrough on the Hill ,Melton Mowbray
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:19 pm Post subject: 1600 into sj without a conversion plate
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Me and Dunk have been discussing, on another site, whether you can do the 1600 vit engine into an SJ/sammy without a conversion plate.
Benefits : costs less (£45 to £65) and also the starter will fully engage on the flywheel, sometimes a problem with plate???
Downside :No idea how to do it
I think the idea is that the top 2 bolts just do up as normal and then you strategically drill and tap some more holes in the engine block(naff desciption i know)
Has anyone done the conversion like this, if so can i have some piccys/advice.
Steve
__________________________________ "I am not calling my zook "Piglet" Becci no matter how hard you beg" |
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the-offroad-armory Guest
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:24 pm Post subject:
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The Plate does not alter the position of the starter or flywheel... So the starter does fully engage with the ring gear...
Really not advised doing the conversion without the plate...
No offense, but you must be very tight if you'd rather bodge it than spend 45 quid...
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Zuk-D-Limit Articulating
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 Odometer: 904 Location: Birmingham
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:35 pm Post subject:
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when i did my conversion it was in Spain and there a plate had to come from America so its was like 150 pounds, so i did it myself and up to today no problem!!!
I did as described, top wholes normal and bottom i just drilled new ones, nice and easy but make sure its very straight as i did mine sideways at first and nakered the clutch springs and started wasnt engaging properly. So if starter is fine gearbox and engine are well aligned.
Dunk has seen my car and how i drive it so im sure he will approve it works and doesnt break
__________________________________ Herve, lets go out and play in the mud!!! |
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dunk Off-Road Guru
Joined: 01 Apr 2006 Odometer: 1816 Location: worcester
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject:
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Zuk-D-Limit wrote: |
Dunk has seen my car and how i drive it so im sure he will approve it works and doesnt break |
All i can say is he's Nuts and that poor poor zuke.
Steve i will have a mooch under Herve's bonnet when he is not looking and take some pics. I do think it would be better without the conversion plate.
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Sooty Zooki Mud Obsessed
Joined: 16 Nov 2003 Odometer: 4828 Location: Beverley, East Yorks
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:58 pm Post subject:
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I know some who swear by no adaptor plate. Most holes on Vit engine and SJ box line up. You can weld new hole onto gearbox to present to engine and voila. Benefit is a stronger mate than semi-circle plate, and obvious cost. Speak to Pete Scott (Xamatex) or Nathaniel Ham. Both have 1st hand experience of this.
Offroad Armoury - are you speaking from experience or as a vendor?
__________________________________ Reformed Suzuki Samurai owner (but still has a 02 Jimny!). 1993 Fourtrak 2.8 TD Intercooler. |
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dunk Off-Road Guru
Joined: 01 Apr 2006 Odometer: 1816 Location: worcester
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject:
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I did see somewhere on the web about welding some bolts on. From memory they screw two bolts in from the rear of the gearbox and then weld another two bolts on the outside that to line up with the holes in the vit engine. Mine fits with the conversion plate but my starter does not sound great and i have tried twisting the box around which made it a bit better. But when the summer comes i think i am going to take it out and fit it back together without the plate.
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xamtex Difflock Royalty
Joined: 02 Dec 2003 Odometer: 11903 Location: nuneaton
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject:
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i welded 2 lugs onto the gearbox bellhousing to accept the 2 bottom bolts,i have seen it done with "J" bolts aswell.
you still need to relieve the block or fit a skinny starter doing it like this though.
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Luke Bailey Mud Obsessed
Joined: 23 Jul 2005 Odometer: 4102 Location: Moorside Oldham Lancashire
1989 Suzuki Samurai
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:57 pm Post subject:
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simply all i did was bolt the top 2 bolts up drilled thru teh bottom 2 bolts shaved the heads of the bolts so it meant i didnt have to grind anything off teh gearbox or engine blocks and done... simple and 45 quid spare to go on somthing for the truck... really really easy
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sj_4x4 Winch Assistant
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Odometer: 53
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:01 pm Post subject:
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xamtex wrote: | i welded 2 lugs onto the gearbox bellhousing to accept the 2 bottom bolts,i have seen it done with "J" bolts aswell.
you still need to relieve the block or fit a skinny starter doing it like this though. |
No you don't just grind a little of the side of the starter, where it fouls on the block, two second job.
Why anyone would pay for a plate that takes no more the 5 minutes to make is beyond me !
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mr_e Just got MTs
Joined: 06 Apr 2006 Odometer: 412 Location: Kent
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject:
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Leigh from Rhino Riders done mine last month, he never uses a plate and he's done more conversions than I've had hot dinners (and I'm a chunky monkey )
I think he does them the way Baily described.
__________________________________ Let taste be the enemy of art...... |
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Nobby Mud Obsessed
Joined: 31 Dec 2004 Odometer: 3097 Location: Ty Gwyllt
1989 Suzuki Samurai
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:32 pm Post subject:
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Quote: | Why anyone would pay for a plate that takes no more the 5 minutes to make is beyond me ! |
some people havent got a covered area to work under or even a shed to store bits and pieces never mind the equipment to make a plate
here are some pics of Petes Scotts conversion i hope he wont mind me posting it
__________________________________ www.nobbyssigns.co.uk www.x-eng.co.uk www.ruftraks.co.uk www.gigglepin4x4.net www.gwynlewis4x4.co.uk |
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suzukishrek Mud Obsessed
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Odometer: 2815 Location: Derbyshire
1995 Toyota Landcruiser
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:09 pm Post subject:
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Anybody tried putting the Vit engine AND gearbox into an SJ?
There's a hidden benefit to this: chop off the front output on the Vit T-case and weld it up, then the rear output goes into your existing SJ T-case - this may need moving back a bit or the engine forward. Hey presto, dual T-cases. Since the clutch is on the way out on my 1600 truck, I might try shoving my spare Vit box in its place to see what needs "adapting" to make it fit!
Incidentally, my 1600 doesn't have an adapter plate - its tapped and drilled and it works. I think either method is valid and there will be people who swear by both so it's your truck, get on with it and do what you want as either work.
__________________________________ Graham.
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Want to play offroad? Visit www.paynplay.co.uk to find offroad playsites. |
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rhinoman Mud Obsessed
Joined: 04 Sep 2004 Odometer: 3277 Location: Brinkworth, Wilts
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:49 pm Post subject:
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http://www.nitromax.nl/SAMURAI.HTM
__________________________________ 2000 Vitara 4u2, 3+3 lift, 33s, winch, safari rack, steel front axle and 5:83 R&Ps, LWB brakes
1986 SJ413K Pickup, 1.6 conversion
2006 Jimny JLX+, stock |
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wheelspinner Off-Road Guru
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Odometer: 1019 Location: Burrough on the Hill ,Melton Mowbray
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:29 pm Post subject:
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How about doing this??
Thanks to Paul Breeds for the pics....
__________________________________ "I am not calling my zook "Piglet" Becci no matter how hard you beg" |
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rhinoman Mud Obsessed
Joined: 04 Sep 2004 Odometer: 3277 Location: Brinkworth, Wilts
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Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject:
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wheelspinner wrote: | How about doing this??
Thanks to Paul Breeds for the pics.... |
The bolt looks quite tidy. The engine number looks a bit dodgy though
__________________________________ 2000 Vitara 4u2, 3+3 lift, 33s, winch, safari rack, steel front axle and 5:83 R&Ps, LWB brakes
1986 SJ413K Pickup, 1.6 conversion
2006 Jimny JLX+, stock |
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wheelspinner Off-Road Guru
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Odometer: 1019 Location: Burrough on the Hill ,Melton Mowbray
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Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject:
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The guy putting the numbers on had probably been at an all you can drink for 4000 yen saki bar.
As i said, its not my pics ....all my stolen stuff has much better disguises that than that.
Regards
Steve
__________________________________ "I am not calling my zook "Piglet" Becci no matter how hard you beg" |
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breedsey Off-Road Guru
Joined: 30 Sep 2003 Odometer: 1195 Location: Reading
1992 Suzuki Samurai
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Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:35 am Post subject:
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Sooty Zooki wrote: |
Offroad Armoury - are you speaking from experience or as a vendor? |
Isn't that the new name for rubbers??/
Anyway, i did mine without an adaptor plate over 3 years ago now and i've never had a problem with it.
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suzukishrek Mud Obsessed
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Odometer: 2815 Location: Derbyshire
1995 Toyota Landcruiser
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Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:15 am Post subject:
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breedseyâ„¢ wrote: | Sooty Zooki wrote: |
Offroad Armoury - are you speaking from experience or as a vendor? |
Isn't that the new name for rubbers?? |
Don't forget that Rob, as a professional vendor, has to do things "correctly" and "properly" because if anything goes wrong he can at least say that it wasn't "bodged."
That's not to say that doing it without an adapter is "wrong" or "bodged," just that in this world where it is all too Americanised and people sue others at the drop of a hat, it can be very difficult to make an honest living without fear of idiots.
And lets not also forget that sometimes there are costs associated with a professional doing/making things that the end-user doesn't always see or get a benefit from - e or E marking being one such example and runs to several thousands of pounds on top of development, material and time costs.
That said, certain vendors do hide behind this and charge astronomical prices for "a bit of metal," SU carb manifold adapters spring to mind here!
__________________________________ Graham.
=============================
Want to play offroad? Visit www.paynplay.co.uk to find offroad playsites. |
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Sooty Zooki Mud Obsessed
Joined: 16 Nov 2003 Odometer: 4828 Location: Beverley, East Yorks
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Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:03 am Post subject:
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I know Rob, and have bought stuff from him before (front bumper, and some reverse shackles). Both were good quality.
I was just wondering if he had tried doing one without a plate. Also Rob has a vested interest and not all advice is always impartial - no offense intended to Rob, sorry. That's all I was thinking.
As for CE marking I have never seen any on uprated bits for my truck but that's not something that bothers me.
__________________________________ Reformed Suzuki Samurai owner (but still has a 02 Jimny!). 1993 Fourtrak 2.8 TD Intercooler. |
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suzukishrek Mud Obsessed
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Odometer: 2815 Location: Derbyshire
1995 Toyota Landcruiser
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Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:31 am Post subject:
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Sooty Zooki wrote: | I was just wondering if he had tried doing one without a plate. Also Rob has a vested interest and not all advice is always impartial - no offense intended to Rob, sorry. That's all I was thinking. |
I know what you were thinking and I agree with you entirely, but at the same point neither of us want other folk to wonder off thinking that vendors rip us off with advice designed to make money for them I know some do and some don't.
Sooty Zooki wrote: | As for CE marking I have never seen any on uprated bits for my truck but that's not something that bothers me. |
You likely won't see CE as I was talking about "e" and "E" marking which are way different things. These should bother you if you use your truck on the road with stuff that is not e or E marked since, technically, you can be held liable in the event of an accident!
__________________________________ Graham.
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Want to play offroad? Visit www.paynplay.co.uk to find offroad playsites. |
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Sooty Zooki Mud Obsessed
Joined: 16 Nov 2003 Odometer: 4828 Location: Beverley, East Yorks
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Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:51 am Post subject:
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I did mean E mark Graham - diskelexia is terrible!
The type of thing I am on about, for example is:- a crawler gearset, a Richmond / Detroit locker, lifting springs, revolver shackles, even adaptor plates & bumpers, etc. Never seen E mark on any of these items.
If you insisted on only fitting parts with E mark, you would not be able to do half of what you want to mod your truck. It sounds like I would have to take my chances in court on mine as I do use it on the road... but think I am in the same boat as most on here with that one.
__________________________________ Reformed Suzuki Samurai owner (but still has a 02 Jimny!). 1993 Fourtrak 2.8 TD Intercooler. |
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the-offroad-armory Guest
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Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:30 pm Post subject:
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That used to be the way I done it back in the day, drill it, hack it, grind it... And don't get me wrong, it does the job... But personally, these days I'd rather bolt it together properly and know it was all aligned perfectly... Well I say perfectly, I can only speak for my own plate, not other suppliers plates that need to be re-drilled???
Oh and yup, "The Off-Road Armory" was formerly Rubbers-Suzuki... Just a slight change of direction with the business...
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suzukishrek Mud Obsessed
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Odometer: 2815 Location: Derbyshire
1995 Toyota Landcruiser
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Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:10 pm Post subject:
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Sooty Zooki wrote: | I did mean E mark Graham - diskelexia is terrible! |
Yeah... and why is it such a darned awkward word to spell!
Sooty Zooki wrote: | The type of thing I am on about, for example is:- a crawler gearset, a Richmond / Detroit locker, lifting springs, revolver shackles, even adaptor plates & bumpers, etc. Never seen E mark on any of these items. |
Most of these items are American and don't get e marked (yet alone E marked). It's only stuff intended for use in Europe that needs it.
Sooty Zooki wrote: | If you insisted on only fitting parts with E mark, you would not be able to do half of what you want to mod your truck. It sounds like I would have to take my chances in court on mine as I do use it on the road... but think I am in the same boat as most on here with that one. |
Yep, that's the farce about e/E mark... nobody polices it. It's a complete darned farce and just costs manufacturers money which just gets passed onto the end-user. So long as it passes MOT most folks just go with that... and we all know what a load of rubbish the MOT is!
__________________________________ Graham.
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Want to play offroad? Visit www.paynplay.co.uk to find offroad playsites. |
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squidgy45 Gate Opener
Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Odometer: 39
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Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject:
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i just mated engine and box, drilled through from gearbox side, put through 2 nuts and bolts and job done - its been in there 2 years now with no probs at all!!
__________________________________ If in first you don't succeed, try second! |
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Zuk-D-Limit Articulating
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 Odometer: 904 Location: Birmingham
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Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:07 am Post subject:
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Mot might be crap but much better thna the spanish itv that doesnt test anything and they dont allow any mods at all, cant even put 215's on your zuk!!!!
MOT rules compared to spanish ITV!!!
__________________________________ Herve, lets go out and play in the mud!!! |
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rockwatt Off-Road Guru
Joined: 25 Jul 2007 Odometer: 1542 Location: North lincs
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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject:
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suzukishrek wrote: | Anybody tried putting the Vit engine AND gearbox into an SJ?
There's a hidden benefit to this: chop off the front output on the Vit T-case and weld it up, then the rear output goes into your existing SJ T-case - this may need moving back a bit or the engine forward. Hey presto, dual T-cases. Since the clutch is on the way out on my 1600 truck, I might try shoving my spare Vit box in its place to see what needs "adapting" to make it fit!
Incidentally, my 1600 doesn't have an adapter plate - its tapped and drilled and it works. I think either method is valid and there will be people who swear by both so it's your truck, get on with it and do what you want as either work. |
yes graham I'm using the vit gearbox and tranny but I'm not just cutting the front output off I've shortened the vit tranny by about 7" . the gearbox tranny and second tranny is now 10mm shorter than the original Sammy setup (and its going in your old green lwb now with 86" wheel base) the vit tranny lever is on the side now it will make a good inti theft as it will hide almost under the seat and just leave it in neutral
__________________________________ Rocklobster gears / refurb cases /rockbuckets/SU manifolds/dual transfer boxes/ sj tcase to jimny cradles and speedo drives/bespoke machining / any thing made to a drawing.
email me for details
Find me on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/RockwattEng |
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Kitesurf Difflock Royalty
Joined: 28 Feb 2005 Odometer: 14197 Location: Luton, Beds
1994 Toyota Surf
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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:48 pm Post subject:
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That looks a very neat job rwatt (sorry I don't know your first name). This is the direction I am thinking of going next Summer.
__________________________________ Motorist who drove his 4x4 up Snowdon sentenced to appear on Top Gear. |
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suzukishrek Mud Obsessed
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Odometer: 2815 Location: Derbyshire
1995 Toyota Landcruiser
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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject:
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Ha, that's a co-incidence Richard, I've just started doing the very same thing. I'd be interested to see how you've actually made that end plate and coupled the flange to the putput shaft though?
More details on what I've started over here:
http://forum.difflock.com/viewtopic.php?t=17231
__________________________________ Graham.
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lift man Mud Obsessed
Joined: 11 Jan 2005 Odometer: 2200 Location: glasgow
1994 Suzuki Vitara
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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject:
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This one i fitted in the Vitara..
__________________________________ liftman@scottishmudcub.com |
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scoobystu Guest
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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject:
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Mine is done without an adapter plate and it is a lot easier . I remember when Dunk did his with a plate and it was far from straight forward . (although his plate was supplied by someone who shall not be named ) . Originally the gearbox was designed to be so close to the block putting a plate in alters that . Water proofing also becomes harder , Do it without plate and forget about it . I just farted!!!!!
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