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UK MSA winch-challenge twin cutoff

 
 
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teamidris
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Odometer: 3350
Location: Staffordshire UK



PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:48 pm    Post subject: UK MSA winch-challenge twin cutoff Reply with quote

I'm very pleased with the 'sliding hawse', its a good piece of low-tech, high end equipment Very Happy But putting things like it into the marketplace is work. Infact, many a folk have wrecked a perfectly good hobby by making a job out of it Wink

So Team Idris has developed a twin cut off that takes two Durite red-key cut off switches. In this unit, I have popped one in, and the other is left to your imagination. It fills the MSA rule of; "all electrical cut off in one action".



So I'm sorted Very Happy
Would anyone else like one?
If so, I'll go down that route.

Price you ask Confused
Hell I dont know....about £50 + Shipping ? It is shiny afterall Laughing But you don't get empire strikes back with it Sad

Coments Please Very Happy

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mrcheese
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Joined: 14 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A very nice piece of work that fixes a tricky problem.
There are some clever people on here Applause
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teamidris
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Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Odometer: 3350
Location: Staffordshire UK



PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thankyou Mrcheese Very Happy I must be on the right track Idea

It seems customerry in this section to show you who we are Confused
Were a lot like this Shocked


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parrotveasey81
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Joined: 13 Feb 2009
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Location: bradford on avon (wiltshire)



PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

looks good but its missing something??a handle to move it to turn them off?? or have i missed it Confused



so who's who,who's on the left and who's on the right

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davew
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Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Odometer: 938
Location: Knaresborough



PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only problems I can see are:

1) Durite Red-key switches aren't rated for use with winches.

2) The MSA have stated that solenoids don't meet the new regulation because it has to be a single circuit breaker. I don't think two switches linked like that constitutes a single circuit breaker anymore than a switch and a couple of solenoids does.

The regulations reads:
58.4.1. All vehicles must be fitted with a circuit breaker which isolates the battery from all electrical circuits, which simultaneously stops the engine and which is operable by the driver whilst correctly seated. K.8 recommended.

Which is different to your interpretation of "all electrical cut off in one action".

__________________________________
Yorkshire Off Road Club
http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net/
OBC 2008
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teamidris
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Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Odometer: 3350
Location: Staffordshire UK



PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good coments Very Happy
Thanks, cause this is the sort of stuff I wanted feedback on.

Red key shown is "Rated 100 amps at 24 volts and 500 amps for 5 seconds. M10 studs." Which is cutting it a bit close on a winch. But our 6hp 12,000lb goldfish hasn't blown the 300amp fuse yet, even when it stalled out. Even the 'happy shopper' red key switch held out for a few more months. But.....
I am a fan of the 0-605-26 & 0-605-51 double pole switches at 250 amp continous. They are £80+vat in the UK. I would buy one in a heart beat if they had the low current ignition cut off in there as well Confused
Hence the creation of the switch plate, which could be extended to disconnect three batteries (for 24 boost) with a bit of copy-&-paste on the cad drawing Very Happy


"58.4.1. All vehicles must be fitted with a circuit breaker which isolates the battery from all electrical circuits, which simultaneously stops the engine and which is operable by the driver whilst correctly seated. K.8 recommended."

Tricky; Thats "the battery" not 'batteries', "from all electrical circuits". Physically, my starter battery is already isolated from my winch circuit?
Power can no more get into the engine bay from the winch system, than from the torch in my pocket.
So my existing set up already meets "a circuit breaker which isolates the battery from all electrical circuits, which simultaneously stops the engine and which is operable by the driver whilst correctly seated"

But I don't think that 'battery' is how scruteneers will interpret. I think they will go for;
"must be fitted with a circuit breaker which isolates all electrical circuits, which simultaneously stops the engine and which is operable by the driver whilst correctly seated." Confused Which I've rounded up to "all electrical cut off in one action". Which, if your up-side-down venting petrol, is pretty much whats required.

"I don't think two switches linked like that constitutes a single circuit breaker anymore than a switch and a couple of solenoids does".
Good point Smile I guess the 0-605-26 & 0-605-51 don't either, as they are "double pole". Its still two sets of contacts on the same device.

So really the problem is the MSA, which has once again failed us with its rules. It says "battery", when we have two or three. On that account they are saying the secondary winch system is not in the equation, and needs nothing. No more so than your remote head set battery?
Really its what the clubs interpretation next year.

For me personally, its a few hours hours work, where I'm set up either way, and get a bit of peace-of-mind knowing that pulling the handle shuts off all power Cool
So this really is market research to see if anyone else wants one Question


The hole on the left end is where the cables go to a pull the plate to the left. I kept it free style. Bowden cable, string, air ram, barbed wire, whatever you want Wink

I'm Steve on the left, and Terry, is Terry on the right.

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davew
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Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Odometer: 938
Location: Knaresborough



PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Battery is already plural, a battery is made up of a number of cells and it is not unusual for those cells to be contained in more than one physical container.

The MSA have already confirmed in writing that the regulation includes ALL electrical circuits and includes winches and winch solenoids. MSA technical are supposedly studying this at the moment and I'm hoping they will release a clarification along the lines of the regulation only applying to primary vehicle systems (engine, dash, lights) and not winches. If they don't then a lot of organisers will be running "illegal" events next year if they use a challenge permit.

In terms of current a 1 HP motor is equivalent to 746 watts. So your going to need at least 65A per HP. I'm running XP motors which are rated at 6HP so if I'm going to achieve anything like that I'll be putting through at least 400A at 12V and that is assuming 100% efficiency. Realistically I doubt I ever get anything near that but when I have measured the current with a decent clamp meter 200+ amps isn't unusual and 90A is about typical in no load situations.

Poor quality cable and poor quality switches/connections will all "help" reduce the current flow although they'll also reduce your available winch power. If I'm forced to add yet another voltage drop into my winch circuits I use the 250A/2500A Durite switch that comes in at just over £25. They are much more robust than the 100A plastic ones.

__________________________________
Yorkshire Off Road Club
http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net/
OBC 2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IgMB-s_ldY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POWV-p8erY0
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teamidris
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Joined: 24 Feb 2008
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Location: Staffordshire UK



PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice try Very Happy
Pedantic; Although a 12volt car battery is made from six cells leading to the slang use of the word 'battery', rather than a 'battery of electricity storage cells' (as oposed to; a battery of guns), two or three plastic containers full of nasty chemicals are in this case, definately Batteries Wink

"I'm hoping they will release a clarification along the lines of the regulation only applying to primary vehicle systems (engine, dash, lights) and not winches"
That would be a lot simpler, and make life easier for everyone. But can they do that and stay within the statistics of risk? If the original purpose of the cut-off was to prevent electrical fires post-accident, realistically they cannot allow a system with high current potencial to remain connected. Worse still is that these secondary systems often terminate at the very front and rear of the vehicle?

But if the situation is in limbo, I can only think to get a component price together for the switch plate. Then, if its required, I can move quickly to production.

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davew
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Location: Knaresborough



PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason we ended up with the current regulation is because the MSA Cross Country Committee were far too idle to create the regulations themselves so they just copy/pasted them from another discipline.

It's got nothing to do with risk or specific safety requirements for challenge.

__________________________________
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http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net/
OBC 2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IgMB-s_ldY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POWV-p8erY0
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teamidris
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Joined: 24 Feb 2008
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Location: Staffordshire UK



PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly I think your spot on there with idle Sad The MSA man who came out to a Midland Offroad Club event was pleasant by all accounts, and very suprised to see the actual way the challenge event was raced Shocked (he had absolutely no idea what was involved until he witnessed it, or the low speeds involved)
It's good that an MSA representative saw it, but he wasn't wrting the actual rules?
So I'd go as far as 'disgrace', that any national body would attempt to write legislation for somthing they hadn't even seen. Especially when there have been so many oportunities over the year.

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.
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Joined: 19 Jun 2002
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Location: Northern Ireland's Gold Coast


2009 Land Rover 110 CSW

PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefully that will all change as I am on the 2011 Cross Country Specialist Committee at the MSA!

I have been gathering information from the forum on everyone's views on the MSA and in particular the new challenge event regs and will be bringing this all to the table.

I was nominated for the position on a "grass roots" ticket and intend to fully represent the grass roots opinion and there is no better place than Difflock to get this IMO.

I will be starting a couple of MSA related threads shortly to gather opinion to take to the first Committee meeting, whenever that may be.

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davew
Articulating


Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Odometer: 938
Location: Knaresborough



PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to hear you're on there but I get the feeling that the committee is just there to rubber stamp whatever is passed to them. Most of the committee that rubber-stamped the cut off switch proposal did so despite one of the committee members pointing out that it wasn't technically possible. I don't have any great hopes for an improvement in the situation.

Ian Davis creates the regulations, the committee pretend to understand them and agree them. They then have a mandatory "consultation process" which they then ignore the results of. (the consultation period for the 2011 regs ended over a month after the CCCommittee had voted the regulations through).

In the meantime Ian Davis puts his own interpretation on the regulations effectively changing them as he sees fit. His interpretation of the regulations is more important than what is actually written and published in the blue book. As an example, the 2011 regulations as published don't require a roll cage for vehicles other than soft tops. The official (Ian Davis) interpretation of that is that any vehicle without an UNMODIFIED hard top supplied by the vehicle manufacturer requires a roll cage. Any modification to the hard top at all and you need an MSA spec cage for 2011.

The cut off switch question has now had to go to the safety committee because the committee that voted it in don't feel they are qualified to understand it. The safety committee, I have been told, have no interest if it doesn't involve tarmac racing so a resolution is highly unlikely to emerge before the first events of next year.

Any club organising a challenge event under an MSA challenge permit before this is sorted out is knowingly doing so outside MSA regulations.

__________________________________
Yorkshire Off Road Club
http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net/
OBC 2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IgMB-s_ldY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POWV-p8erY0
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teamidris
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Joined: 24 Feb 2008
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Location: Staffordshire UK



PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The directive to Midland Offroad Club for scruteneering is that 'switches' that 'disconect in one action' in the event of an incident is okay for now, pending further rules.
Or, to put it another way, if you link three red key cutoffs with a common cable pull, and it works well, it'll probably become one of the 'approved methods'.

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redrodant
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Joined: 12 Dec 2009
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Location: Midlands



PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The MSA have made a decishion on the cutout issues, 4 switches, "max" all linked together, so they work with 1 SINGLE OPERATING ACTION, killing all electrical stuff "" only exception is a fire extinguisher circuit"" , and the engine. Simples,and straight from the man incharge!!!

http://midlandoffroadclub.co.uk/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=219&start=50
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teamidris
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Joined: 24 Feb 2008
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Location: Staffordshire UK



PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"looks good but its missing something??a handle to move it to turn them off?? or have i missed it" said Parrot Question

It didn't need a handle originally, as it was to be cable pulled. But it wasn't hitting the mark for me, now that one appeture is a 200amp Durite (ally T handle). The bowden cable wasn't strong enough. So I made an operating lever thats easy to grab hold of Very Happy



Used it today and well chuffed. User friendly like my old cut-off, but two Very Happy

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