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Red ant Winch Assistant
Joined: 18 Jan 2010 Odometer: 62
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:03 pm Post subject: Which Bosch alternator?
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I was changing my belt and had to tap the alternator quite hard to get it to swing in and reduce the tension on the belt. This has some how caused it to seize. It turns back and forth a tiny amount, I'm thinking something has dislodged inside.
It needs to come out, so this would be a good opportunity to upgrade to an internal regulated Bosch unit. Question is what should I go for? I'd want around 65 amps to make it a worthwhile upgrade from the 1.6l 42amps. What fits in with minimal modification? I did some research and giovanni suggests early falcon, EA, EB or even earlier? Most of the self serve wreckers seem to have late 80's to late 90's cars, so something from that era would be good. Self exciting would be neat as well.
It is an 1989 1.6L. Someone has put a RE55 Bosch regulator on it. However I think the alternator is original since it has the little snorkel. I'm in Australia btw.
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ladanut Just got MTs
Joined: 19 May 2010 Odometer: 113 Location: taranaki ,new zealand
1989 Lada Niva
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:12 pm Post subject:
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hi
i fited a hitachii alt to my niva from a toyota celica
__________________________________ if its red an built like a tank its my RUSHN |
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Red ant Winch Assistant
Joined: 18 Jan 2010 Odometer: 62
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:31 pm Post subject:
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What was involved in getting it to fit? Did you have to change the pulley or anything? How about the wiring?
Thanks
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Rotordogg Just got MTs
Joined: 09 Jan 2008 Odometer: 180 Location: Palmy, New Zealand
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:10 pm Post subject:
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This thread might help somewhat:
http://forum.difflock.com/viewtopic.php?t=53504
I'm not sure what Bosh one will go straight on, Might be worth taking your old one into a wrecker's and see what lines up form the falcon's? Keep us updated if you find anything.
If you use your niva offroad alot and your up for the work, I'd look at mounting it higher up the engine away from the dust and water.
As said else where, with a grinder and welder anything can fit!!
__________________________________ You know you've had a hard day's 4wding when you need to waterblast your sock's before putting them into the washing machine!!
.ZL1DOG. |
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ladanut Just got MTs
Joined: 19 May 2010 Odometer: 113 Location: taranaki ,new zealand
1989 Lada Niva
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:25 pm Post subject:
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Red ant wrote: | What was involved in getting it to fit? Did you have to change the pulley or anything? How about the wiring?
Thanks |
here pics of my alt that i mounted on the other side by the dizzy i had the wiring done by a auto elc with my help wasnt to hard to do as the wiring loom is right they an plenty of wire too plus i had a battery cut off swith fitted while it was in there .
__________________________________ if its red an built like a tank its my RUSHN |
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igal Gate Opener
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Odometer: 20
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Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:04 am Post subject:
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Hi Ladanut,
I love what you did to hold the bonnet - Is this the same piston from the baggage door?
__________________________________ 1994 Lada Niva |
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ladanut Just got MTs
Joined: 19 May 2010 Odometer: 113 Location: taranaki ,new zealand
1989 Lada Niva
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Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:11 pm Post subject:
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igal wrote: | Hi Ladanut,
I love what you did to hold the bonnet - Is this the same piston from the baggage door? | the gas strut i use for the bonet is from a toyota celica rear hatch.as the old bonent stay was in the way of the alt
__________________________________ if its red an built like a tank its my RUSHN |
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Giovanni Just got MTs
Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Odometer: 438 Location: Enderley,Hamilton,North Island,New Zealand,South Pacific.
1988 Lada Niva
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:52 am Post subject:
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Red ant: If you have no extra aftermarket electrical accessories if possible retain the original alternator.I have extra electricals i.e.onboard air pump,many two way radios,twin electric thermo fans. I fitted a RE56 Bosch regulator.This allows for a higher charge sense voltage by cutting the exposed wire protruding from the epoxy resin on the underside of the regulator next to the terminals.This allows the alternator to work harder which is still working fine.No more flickering,fluctuating headlamps.
What you may have done is damaged the stator core,which is sandwitched between the front and rear brackets.
In which case strip the alternator and inspect the stator core segments to see if are distorted or have moved.You may see marks where it has moved or scrape marks from the central rotor.Carefully tap back into place any segements trying not to pinch or damaged the copper wiring that is wound within.
If it is stuffed fit a Bosch or something Japanese unit perferably in the position Ladanut mentioned .
__________________________________ "Make love to a Niva owner.We need more of them,OVER!"
73 de 41-HN3800 / CEF-195 / SAS-1173 / ZL1PO / ZMT5152 |
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dacarlson Gate Opener
Joined: 29 Apr 2010 Odometer: 10
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:18 am Post subject:
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I fitted a GM Small body alt. Made by powermaster. Unit is a 1 wire, internal regulator. All you have to do is, reem out the alty bracket to larger bolt hole to accomadate the different alt bolt. The stock bracketry will do if you use some washers as spacers to keep the pullies in line. Some filing of the alty brackets may be necissary to keep pullies flush.
Though, if your doing a serious upgrade i recomend relocating your alty like shown above.
My alty puts out a 156amps at full bore. Which the stock belt drive system is not capable of keeping enough tension on the alternator to prevent it from squeeling. I killed a waterpump to with the added side load of overtightening the belt.
Take my words of advise, if you plan on using a GM small body alternator, (80's Fuel injected camaros, Full size pickups etc.) Get no more then 80-90 amps. I believe 80 is what is stock for a camaro.
Unless you plan on relocating your bracketry, and giving it its own belt pully like i have its a waste of time. (and money)
GM alternators, a rarity in your neck fo the woods i suppose are famous for relaibility. I swear by them, and would even install them in a ford, or a toyota. Highly recomend a gm wire alt. If you like i can get you some part numbers..
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Red ant Winch Assistant
Joined: 18 Jan 2010 Odometer: 62
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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:55 pm Post subject:
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Thanks for all the advice guys. After much looking at Bosch catalogs I went and got a alternator from an EA Falcon. It has the V-belt pulley which is a little smaller than the Lada alt. The mounting bolt is 10mm instead of 12mm, so I made a bush and will use washers to get the belts in line. The biggest challenge is the tensioner bracket. I'm going to have a go at fabricating one. I thought I could just flatten the original one and turn it on its side, but it needs the curve in it.
Could ppl post up some pics of their tensioner brackets.
I'm thinking of just fixing my Lada alt and putting it back in. That way its all original and it has the snorkel on it which has done a really good job of keeping the mud out. It always seemed to keep up enough with the spotlights and stereo etc. It just struggled at idle.
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ladanut Just got MTs
Joined: 19 May 2010 Odometer: 113 Location: taranaki ,new zealand
1989 Lada Niva
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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:26 pm Post subject:
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if you want to keep the mud out i recomend on mounting it on the other side up high like i did in the pic's above for the tension bracket i used a bit of think flat bar an slotted it an bent it inthe pipe benders.
__________________________________ if its red an built like a tank its my RUSHN |
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dacarlson Gate Opener
Joined: 29 Apr 2010 Odometer: 10
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Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:29 am Post subject:
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Heres some photos. It's my gm alty. I used the coil pack mounting area to mount my brackets. Real simple.
By happly at 2010-07-12
The prentensioner just runs along the top of the valve cover. Also, made by hand. I just chopped the end of the stock tension-er and welded it onto my homemade bracket for the alty adjustment. I'd offer you dimensions, but i made my bracket different then the hoodo bracket because i have a double ribbed pully for the harmonic balencer.
By happly at 2010-07-12
I made this bracket compeletly by hand. Just a hack saw and some files. Not exact, but it sure works nice. The stock wiring to the coil packs works fine with the exception of the one to the evap canister. Had to lengthen them about 6-7 inches. No big deal. The alty, i completely re-wired, The wiring looked sketchy at best, so i thought id give it a fresh start.
By happly at 2010-07-12
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Guest
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Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:45 pm Post subject:
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www.channel19.demon.co.uk
Gives details of various mods, including the alternator re-positioning. It's a guide, and can be varied at will.
Regards,
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Red ant Winch Assistant
Joined: 18 Jan 2010 Odometer: 62
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:15 am Post subject:
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I went back the wreckers and got the bracket from the same car as the alternator. Then I cut it, bent it, drilled it, then bent it some more. It fits perfectly. The original belt is a little on the long side due to the smaller pulley, so I'll be getting a new one anyway.
Next problem is the wiring. The Bosch alt came with a plug on the volt reg with 2 wires. The one marked "L" (light) I am hooking up to the same wire as the original charge light. As far as I can tell it puts out 14v when charging and 0v when not. This should be fine as the other side of the coil in the relay has ign voltage so all should work as normal. The other wire is "S" (sense). I'm going to hook it the wire running to original volt reg and joint the 2 wires at the volt reg so it has constant ign voltage. Last is the "B+" which goes to the battery. The lugs are too small to fit on the new alt, also the wires arn't quite long enough. I'm going to put a bolt through these lugs to hold them together, then tape them off out the way. Then I will run a new h/d wire and solder it into the starter wire. I'd rather run a short wire and use a lug to connect it to the starter, however it pretty tight down there.
What does everyone think. If I could be bothered I would mount it on the other side up high like everyone else. But I don't go driving in the mud much these days, I got sick of all the cleaning and brakes wearing out so quick.
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Giovanni Just got MTs
Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Odometer: 438 Location: Enderley,Hamilton,North Island,New Zealand,South Pacific.
1988 Lada Niva
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:56 pm Post subject:
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Discard the original warning lamp relay.
The Bosch alternator requires + via the warning lamp to excite the alternator.
This will not happen with the original Niva wiring.
Do not connect the W to the relay.You may stuff the v/reg.
The Niva warnimng lamp bulb holder at the dash will have to be replaced with an insulated above ground bulb holder.
Obtain and install an insulated bulb holder with no more than a 2 watt globe installed.
Hook one side of this to + ignition supply and the other side goes direct to the alternator W terminal.
S battery/ignition sense
Good idea with the alternator main + wire
__________________________________ "Make love to a Niva owner.We need more of them,OVER!"
73 de 41-HN3800 / CEF-195 / SAS-1173 / ZL1PO / ZMT5152 |
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Red ant Winch Assistant
Joined: 18 Jan 2010 Odometer: 62
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:48 pm Post subject:
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I just worked out that the old relay has a coil resistance of 29ohms. This would make it act like a 6w globe which is too much. I'm going to put a relay in there with a higher coil resistance. That way I don't have to touch the globe in the dash and can go back to standard if I want.
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Giovanni Just got MTs
Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Odometer: 438 Location: Enderley,Hamilton,North Island,New Zealand,South Pacific.
1988 Lada Niva
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Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:41 am Post subject:
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I might be wrong but I beleive Bosch alternators require + via the warning lamp to the L terminal to excite the alternator.
Damage to the voltage reulator may result if this is not done.
It appears your installation may be going through self excitation (residual magnetisim effect)as you run it up with no +12v at the warning lamp terminal.
I will check and confirm my theory.
__________________________________ "Make love to a Niva owner.We need more of them,OVER!"
73 de 41-HN3800 / CEF-195 / SAS-1173 / ZL1PO / ZMT5152 |
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Red ant Winch Assistant
Joined: 18 Jan 2010 Odometer: 62
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Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:16 pm Post subject:
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After doing much research I suspect your right. The regulator is a RE60 that bolts on the back and contains the brushes. It has an L and S terminal. The S terminal hooks direct to the battery or wherever you want to sense the voltage from. The L requires 12v ignition through a lamp to excite the alt.
I can't see the difference between running L through a lamp or the coil of a relay provided the ohms are the same (around 88ohms = 2w at 12v). The problem I have now is that a previous owner has fitted a external Bosch regulator and has changed the wiring around so gotta figure out whats what.
I have one cable with constant 12v.
Another with 12v ignition on. It also has 45ohms resistance to bat +. So I suspect it is coming from the coil of a relay hidden under the dash somewhere.
I can't find where the charge light cable from the alternator ends up. I thought it was meant to goto the relay on the mudguard. Instead the relay is using the 12v ign wire to switch the constant 12v wire to the volt reg.
I'm going to have a look under the dash for this fancy wiring.
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Giovanni Just got MTs
Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Odometer: 438 Location: Enderley,Hamilton,North Island,New Zealand,South Pacific.
1988 Lada Niva
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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:48 am Post subject:
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"I can't see the difference between running L through a lamp or the coil of a relay provided the ohms are the same (around 88ohms = 2w at 12v)."
The difference is the warning lamp supplys a + voltage where as the relay is a resistive load going to ground.
Useing your set up as an example when the alternator does self excite itself and produce voltage exiting the alternators L terminal the relay acts as a resistive load, this could and I suspect will damage the regulator.
The Bosch charging system requires +12v from the charge lamp going into the alternators warning lamp L terminal to excite the alternator.When this happens + rising voltage generated from the alternator extingushes the warning lamp.
__________________________________ "Make love to a Niva owner.We need more of them,OVER!"
73 de 41-HN3800 / CEF-195 / SAS-1173 / ZL1PO / ZMT5152 |
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Red ant Winch Assistant
Joined: 18 Jan 2010 Odometer: 62
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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:50 am Post subject:
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What i want to do is have 12v ign on one side of the coil and feed the other side of the coil to L. I will use the contacts in the relay to supply power to the existing warning lamp. Electrics is not my field, but is a relay coil really that different of a load to a lamp of the same wattage?
I was looking for info on my regulator on goggle and came a across of commodore forum where someone mentioned people have put a relay in place of the lamp so that they could switch loads based on whether the alt was charging or not. They recon you could run upto 8w from L with no problems.
Anyone got some ideas about my mystery wiring?
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Red ant Winch Assistant
Joined: 18 Jan 2010 Odometer: 62
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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:35 am Post subject:
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I got it all sorted now. I found the lamp relay and in its place it put a conventional relay. It works fine. The S (sense) wire I hooked direct to the battery as looking in other car manuals with Bosch alternators this is how its done. Now I just have to tidy up the wiring and remove the old relay and voltage regulator, oh and get a shorter belt.
Now I have 14.4 volts at idle even with the spotlights on, but it drops by a few hundred revs. The headlights no longer dim when going back to idle and the heater fan doesn't drop revs. It's kinda lost a bit of character. But that happens each time something more modern is added. I love the way the fuel gauge jumps around and gearbox rumbles at idle (till I put SKF in there). I'm fixing the old one to keep as a spare, might even put it back in.
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nivaman Articulating
Joined: 24 May 2006 Odometer: 929 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:27 am Post subject:
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I have done what you did with the relay and i have found the alternator works fine.
I got a diagram off of Google for wiring an alternator/.
__________________________________ Lada a little car that takes you far. |
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