View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Overlander Just got MTs
Joined: 12 Feb 2006 Odometer: 303 Location: Glasgow
|
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:23 pm Post subject: OK give in Tow rope/Strap
|
|
|
This is getting ridiculous now, got trapped in a car park today because some asshole in a Suzuki SX4 got stuck. Got out to help them the front wheels were spinning like mad. This car park was only suitable for 4x4's as its got so bad no one uses it except me and two range rovers, due to the small volume of traffic its getting worse. So Mr suzuki says i dont get it, this is 4 wheel drive. Checked the dash to see if there was a centre difflock but nothing, front wheels spinning away no attempt on the rear wheels. Quick look underneath no rear diff, so 4 wheel drive my ass what a tool.
Sorry to ramble on but where can i buy a tow rope strap, that i can hook onto my tow bar. Would like to have one that will be of use to me in the future so one suitable for large 4x4's would be good.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
Orangev8 Guest
|
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:15 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
What do you want to use it for ?
snatch recovery etc. ?
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
DD Mud Obsessed
Joined: 25 Sep 2003 Odometer: 9761 Location: Aberdeenshire
1986 Land Rover Defender
|
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:17 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
for pulling idiots out of snow? A 4.99 yellow rope from Halfrauds will do......
Good for a few tonne..i.e, 4x4's for a gentle pull.
__________________________________ Disco 'DD' Don
90 v8 for fun
110 XS CSW daily drive
'I came, I saw, I locked the diff' |
|
Back to top |
|
|
DD Mud Obsessed
Joined: 25 Sep 2003 Odometer: 9761 Location: Aberdeenshire
1986 Land Rover Defender
|
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:20 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
ps, they're not all 4 wheel drive. The SX4 'Sport' is FWD only.
__________________________________ Disco 'DD' Don
90 v8 for fun
110 XS CSW daily drive
'I came, I saw, I locked the diff' |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Overlander Just got MTs
Joined: 12 Feb 2006 Odometer: 303 Location: Glasgow
|
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:46 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Just had a good look around an the kinetic ropes are pretty expensive thought they would only be a few quid dearer than a cheap rope. Only need one for pulling the idiots out of the snow but thought a good rope would only be a few quid more. Really do not want too spend too much but thats twice its taken me 3 hours to get home a normal journey is 15-20 mins. What really gets me is why do these morons think that their car can drive in a foot of snow, then you get the vacant stare as the wheels spin at 100 mph, now thats gonna help lol. Will buy a cheap rope then invest in a good ARB kinetic after the xmas shock is over
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
clbarclay Off-Road Guru
Joined: 22 Oct 2006 Odometer: 1779 Location: Worcesterhire
1987 Land Rover Range Rover
|
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:46 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
As above, I have one of those ropes for jobs like that. One advantage of not using a proper size recovery rope is if they are badly stuck (eg. in ditch with an unknown tree stump wedged under a subframe) then hopefully the rope will snap before any serious damage is done.
__________________________________ The Lord helps them as helps them selves
and the Lord help them caught helping there selves. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
TheClunk Off-Road Guru
Joined: 26 Jan 2009 Odometer: 1159 Location: Chippenham
1997 Vauxhall Frontera
|
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:52 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
I have a few 5 ton lifting slings to aid towing. My old mans company throws them away once used. He gets them for me to use for climbing.
They are handy with a couple of shackles to fit to cars with lost removable towing eyes. Had a few of them this week.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
idratherbesurfing Just got MTs
Joined: 06 Nov 2008 Odometer: 434 Location: In my garage with a cup of tea and the heating on
1985 Land Rover Defender
|
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:00 am Post subject:
|
|
|
ive got a 4m 14t strap that I use for recovery. Get onto Bertie on here he sells good recovery kit
__________________________________ Ditched the jap crap and bought a 90 ... and then dropped a V8 into it |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Overlander Just got MTs
Joined: 12 Feb 2006 Odometer: 303 Location: Glasgow
|
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:05 am Post subject:
|
|
|
clbarclay wrote: | As above, I have one of those ropes for jobs like that. One advantage of not using a proper size recovery rope is if they are badly stuck (eg. in ditch with an unknown tree stump wedged under a subframe) then hopefully the rope will snap before any serious damage is done. |
Never thought of that, mind made up then cheap rope for now proper one later and keep both.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Orangev8 Guest
|
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:27 am Post subject:
|
|
|
Having a rope as a weak link is madness. Even a cheap hawser laid rope will not give in until it is loaded to about 2t and then it will at least put a big dent in your bonnet, or some ones head.
For clarity
If you want a tow rope to tow something...........buy a tow rope.
If you want something to snatch a 2.5t 4x4 out of a ditch then get a proper 8t kinetic rope. When a 2.5t vehicle is attached to another 2.5t vehicle with a rope = 5t + dynamic load.
If you chuck me a piece of string if I am stuck...............I shall remain stuck!
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
clbarclay Off-Road Guru
Joined: 22 Oct 2006 Odometer: 1779 Location: Worcesterhire
1987 Land Rover Range Rover
|
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:20 am Post subject:
|
|
|
Orangev8 wrote: | Having a rope as a weak link is madness. Even a cheap hawser laid rope will not give in until it is loaded to about 2t and then it will at least put a big dent in your bonnet, or some ones head.
For clarity
If you want a tow rope to tow something...........buy a tow rope.
If you want something to snatch a 2.5t 4x4 out of a ditch then get a proper 8t kinetic rope. When a 2.5t vehicle is attached to another 2.5t vehicle with a rope = 5t + dynamic load.
If you chuck me a piece of string if I am stuck...............I shall remain stuck! |
Having snapped one of those cheap tow ropes for vehicles up to 2000kg (not actually towing or recovering at the time), they store a fraction of the energy of a typical kinetic rope. Combine that with the low weight of the rope, drag etc. and if someone happens to be in the way then a "big dent in some ones head" would be in the same league as cutting someone clean in half with a winch rope.
Potentially if the eye pulls out of their bumper then the weight of it and the hook (always goes at their end) might be about right for it to catapult, but then it would have broken at a lower force than the rope breaking and therefore less energy to accelerate the projectile and its still tethered to the back of my car.
The static draft force of 2 vehicles pulling against each other doesn't double the force in the rope, they just balance each other. The reality would be up to 2.5t static force and 5.5t dynamic load or to put that another way, subjecting your vehicle and body to 2.2g deceleration, which is not unreasonable. That however would be very different circumstances to me offering to pull a random persons car.
If you have an 8 or 12 ton recovery rope then can use it, but be aware than you can exert much higher forces on their car.
__________________________________ The Lord helps them as helps them selves
and the Lord help them caught helping there selves. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Nathaniel Difflock Royalty
Joined: 13 May 2003 Odometer: 17901 Location: North, North Yorkshire
1979 Suzuki LJ
|
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:53 am Post subject:
|
|
|
I have snapped a "£4.99 cheap yelow tow rope" a few times, and it just goes pop and falls to the floor, no damage...
They're ideal for clipping onto little towhooks too because of the diddy safety hook.
__________________________________ Nat
If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Nightbar Difflock Royalty
Joined: 30 Sep 2003 Odometer: 20799 Location: In a state of anticipation...
1999 Land Rover Defender
|
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:28 am Post subject:
|
|
|
Wheel spinning - snow chains.
__________________________________ The ex-Difflock Ambassador to Naples, Sir Nightbar DCJC DFS and 2 bars.
Plant a tree for the Difflock 3 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
nivapilot Guest
|
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:34 am Post subject:
|
|
|
idratherbesurfing wrote: | ive got a 4m 14t strap that I use for recovery. Get onto Bertie on here he sells good recovery kit |
I'll second that emotion..
Also I carry a hemp rope with spliced ends, a loop at both ends, seems to do the trick for me, shackle through whatever, on the stuck car, and loop over the towball, gets 'em moving every time.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
YotaDave Articulating
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 Odometer: 958 Location: Bristol
1994 Toyota Landcruiser
|
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:34 am Post subject:
|
|
|
I carry a couple of JATO rockets. Strap them to the stuck vehicle and it disappears!
__________________________________ Dave (the Young Fart) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Orangev8 Guest
|
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:39 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
clbarclay wrote: | Orangev8 wrote: | Having a rope as a weak link is madness. Even a cheap hawser laid rope will not give in until it is loaded to about 2t and then it will at least put a big dent in your bonnet, or some ones head.
For clarity
If you want a tow rope to tow something...........buy a tow rope.
If you want something to snatch a 2.5t 4x4 out of a ditch then get a proper 8t kinetic rope. When a 2.5t vehicle is attached to another 2.5t vehicle with a rope = 5t + dynamic load.
If you chuck me a piece of string if I am stuck...............I shall remain stuck! |
Having snapped one of those cheap tow ropes for vehicles up to 2000kg (not actually towing or recovering at the time), they store a fraction of the energy of a typical kinetic rope. Combine that with the low weight of the rope, drag etc. and if someone happens to be in the way then a "big dent in some ones head" would be in the same league as cutting someone clean in half with a winch rope.
Potentially if the eye pulls out of their bumper then the weight of it and the hook (always goes at their end) might be about right for it to catapult, but then it would have broken at a lower force than the rope breaking and therefore less energy to accelerate the projectile and its still tethered to the back of my car.
The static draft force of 2 vehicles pulling against each other doesn't double the force in the rope, they just balance each other. The reality would be up to 2.5t static force and 5.5t dynamic load or to put that another way, subjecting your vehicle and body to 2.2g deceleration, which is not unreasonable. That however would be very different circumstances to me offering to pull a random persons car.
If you have an 8 or 12 ton recovery rope then can use it, but be aware than you can exert much higher forces on their car. |
Hmmn! how did you snap the rope then ? and g force aside...are you conversant with load in tension. 2.5t + 2.5t = 5t tension in the rope= WLL + dynamic load.
Your not a lifting engineer by any chance?
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
LlaniGraham Mud Obsessed
Joined: 06 Nov 2005 Odometer: 2701 Location: Llanidloes
|
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:10 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Surely you should never use a kinetic rope on a normal car.
Firstly the towing attachmants aren't designed for the forces involved, and secondly I doubt whether the towed will have any experience of the techniques involved.
Normal tow rope and "gently does it"
__________________________________ MSA Radio WORCESTER 1
4x4 Response Wales |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bigbadtonka Just got MTs
Joined: 17 May 2004 Odometer: 492
|
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:29 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
my mum had an SX4 4Grip it was 4x4 and it was crap until they put M+S tyres on it then it was much better. his must have been FWD as it should go 4x4 if slipage is noticed or selected.
I now will only tow cars backwords out of trouble if they have a tow bar! i helped a friend tow an old manky Polo and my RRC pulled the front pannel off in one full piece, i would hate to do this to any other car!
I would though stick to a 2T rope as this should snap and fall down to the ground.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
crazymac Mud Obsessed
Joined: 22 Feb 2008 Odometer: 2389 Location: Pembrokeshire, West Wales
|
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:40 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Dunno about anyone else, but it terrifies me to think of people using Kinetic ropes or strops to drag people out of the snow??
Normal rated tow strops are easier to store in the car and with a shackle your end and a Karrabiner at the car end (most cars recovery hooks will not accept a shackle) then as Llanigraham says, gently away! there is no need for sudden shock loading.
__________________________________ If I had to explain, you wouldn't understand
http://www.ww4x4.co.uk/index.php |
|
Back to top |
|
|
clbarclay Off-Road Guru
Joined: 22 Oct 2006 Odometer: 1779 Location: Worcesterhire
1987 Land Rover Range Rover
|
Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:15 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Orangev8 wrote: | Hmmn! how did you snap the rope then ? and g force aside...are you conversant with load in tension. 2.5t + 2.5t = 5t tension in the rope= WLL + dynamic load.
Your not a lifting engineer by any chance? |
It go snapped being used as a prusik loop to grip and pull out a length of box section from a box section bracket on a cultivator. Years of soil water and corrosion had "glued" them together so it was a case of applying some tension and then smacking the outer box section with a big hammer to separate them, only a bit too much tension was applied the first time.
No I'm not a lifting engineer.
I'm still not sure how you doubling the tension in the rope with 2 force acting in opposite directions or is this doubling it just a rule of thumb for working out a suitable size of rope?
__________________________________ The Lord helps them as helps them selves
and the Lord help them caught helping there selves. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
sae70 Just got MTs
Joined: 09 Nov 2007 Odometer: 142 Location: Near Chelmsford, Essex.
1994 Suzuki Vitara
|
Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:56 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Machine Mart
50mmx4.5m 5000kg Lifting and Crane Webbing Tow Band £10.56
I've had one of these under my drivers seat for 3 years know & it's always in use as it's always handy It has served me very well indeed not just towing but recovery as well even used it to pull a fence post back up straight
Yes the shackle & a test certificate come with it as well all for only £10.56
__________________________________ Regards
Steven |
|
Back to top |
|
|
MudBarf Just got MTs
Joined: 07 Jan 2010 Odometer: 135 Location: London
|
Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:01 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
clbarclay wrote: | I'm still not sure how you doubling the tension in the rope with 2 force acting in opposite directions or is this doubling it just a rule of thumb for working out a suitable size of rope? |
I can't work that out either.
Unless you're hanging both cars from a crane with that one rope, I honestly can't see how someone can say a 2.5 ton car pulling a 2.5 ton car = 5 tons of pressure on that rope.
For a start, the rolling weight of an object is not equal to it's total weight. That's how come they can pull trains on the world's strongest man contest. On even ground, you have to overcome the friction of the object pressing down on it's own bearings, tyres etc - not lift it's entire weight. A 2000lb electric winch should, theoretically, be able to pull a 6000lb vehicle across even, smooth tarmac. If you had a maglev train, in theory a little girl could move it along a perfectly flat track - no friction to overcome. In reality, you'd have to do it in a vaccume too, and the little girl might not like that...
Anyhow, overcoming mud, snow, inclines etc adds another level of complexity here, but still doesn't mean 2.5T pulling 2.5T = 5T of pressure/torque on the rope. Even if you were pulling the vehicle straight up in the air with a 1:1 pully, you'd only be seeing 2.5T on the rope, plus whatever torque the acceleration forces of the towing vehicle moving generates. The towing vehicle doesn't add weight to the equation because it's already supporting itself. If it wasn't, then *it* would need towing/lifting too!
__________________________________ 1985 SJ413 SJ50V SPOA, HIF44 carb with proper RW manifold, 31x10.5 Kaiman Malatestas |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jeepjeep Just got MTs
Joined: 29 Dec 2009 Odometer: 101
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Kitesurf Difflock Royalty
Joined: 28 Feb 2005 Odometer: 14197 Location: Luton, Beds
1994 Toyota Surf
|
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:13 am Post subject:
|
|
|
I carry a hessian rope with a spliced loop on one end and a carbina on the other. I also have a short strap that I can attach through the spliced loop when required.
I also have one of those cheap orange stretchy things they sell in pound shops as towropes. It has only been used once - to pull out a Winnbago that had sunk up to its rims on soft grass.
__________________________________ Motorist who drove his 4x4 up Snowdon sentenced to appear on Top Gear. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Roger Mud Obsessed
Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Odometer: 2050 Location: Redditch Worcestershire
|
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:10 am Post subject:
|
|
|
nivapilot wrote: | idratherbesurfing wrote: | ive got a 4m 14t strap that I use for recovery. Get onto Bertie on here he sells good recovery kit |
I'll second that emotion..
|
I asked Bertie for a quote for a 5 metre KER strap.
£22 plus postage he replied.
I ordered it.
I asked him how he wanted payment.
That was back in November.
Still waiting.
Roger
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
james_hillerby Mud Obsessed
Joined: 26 Sep 2004 Odometer: 3316 Location: Aberdeenshire
1989
|
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:08 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Roger You might have to pester Bertie as he works offshore and doesnt have the best of memories
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
smokeyjoe Articulating
Joined: 23 Jul 2003 Odometer: 905 Location: Kimpton
|
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:07 am Post subject:
|
|
|
For road (including this snow stuff) use a 4m (approx) NYLON 12t tow ROPE.
These are not KER but do have a bit of stretch making towing a much more pleasurable & easier job.
Once you have the rope & a couple of 4.5t (ish) shackels the next thing to buy is a long strop. I have a 30m 2t from champion winches (about £20-30 from memory).
Why so long? cos it means I can pull something out of a snowdrift/mud hole etc without getting so close that I risk getting stuck as well - It has had a fair bit of use in the snow & wouldnt be without it.
__________________________________ Raising money for Macmillan cancer support
Visit http://www.team32.co.uk & pledge a few ££s please |
|
Back to top |
|
|
scut44 Guest
|
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:51 am Post subject:
|
|
|
Anton,
if you are tow 2.5 tonnes, then thats what you are towing, & once its moving then thats easy.
If you dangle 2.5 tonnes, then thats the weight being held, 2.5 tonnes.
If 2.5 tonnes of vehicle is stuck in mud/ditch etc.
Then you are about to tow 2.5 tonnes.
BUT, its an immovable object possibly.You dont know how stuck till you try.
It might as well be an oil rig. & 1000,000 tonnes.
Untill it moves or something breaks you are pulling a dead weight,
the towing vehicle needs traction & putting its power to the ground.
If you ease off the tension and give it a bit of a tug.
Its still an imovable object till it moves,
so what are the forces involved.
2.5 tonnes doesnt come into it really.
If you go fishing for 20lb salmon with a 12lb breaking strain line,
You might land a 25lb salmon, or the line might break.
Tough luck.
Towing out 2.5 tonnes thats stuck with the wrong breaking strain of gear & it doesnt move it, then going wrong can end in big tears.
george
.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
ali_aberdeen Just got MTs
Joined: 26 Apr 2006 Odometer: 191 Location: Aberdeen
|
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:52 am Post subject:
|
|
|
mythbusters may not cut a pig in half, but i can assure you there are no end of dead seafarers that have been cut in half or limbs cut off by parted ropes and wires. Seriously dangerous bits of equipment if not a Looked after and B used properly.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
leeds Just got MTs
Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Odometer: 244 Location: Leeds
|
Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:01 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Am surprised that no one has pointed out that people are using different terminology to describe their towing/recovery gear.
WLL = working load limit and is 1/7th of its rated strength of a new strap.
Polyester is material used in lifting strap and the standard one used in the 4 x 4 world is a 2" duplex double layer one which has an ultimate strength of 14 tonnes. Useful as a tow or tree strop due to its lower elasticity
Snatch/recovery straps are nylon due to its greater elasticity over polyester. For snatch straps the only safety factor I have seen is 2.5/3 to 1 by the Queensland state government so a 8,000 kg is suitable for most 4 x 4
Ropes are rated by their breaking strength and 8 tonne 24 mm nylon rope is the standard nylon recovery rope. Standard KERR is 12 tonnes.
Be wary about buying towing/recovery gear from non 4 x 4 places.
Halfords sell a tow rope suitable for towing a 4,000 kg vehicle. This figure of 4,000 has nothing to do with the strength of this rope. To tow a 4,000 kg vehicle on level tarmac which has no mechanical damage is only 400 kg. The hooks supplied on this rope are not stamped and are smaller then the 2,000 kg WLL hooks on my winch. What is the actual strength of this rope?? Have a look at the comments about all the tow ropes on the Halfords website.
Machine Mart are selling a towing bridle HERE No mention of strengths/wll. Are those shackles actually rated?
Be careful where you buy your gear from!
Brendan
There are tow straps rated at 5 tonnes on ebay yet have a quoted strength of 6 tonnes a safety factor of 1.2
__________________________________ www.4x4overlander.com
2008 Trip Report Here
Asturias, North Spain 2009 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|