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On footpath with permission?

 
 
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paul
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Joined: 17 Nov 2001
Odometer: 80
Location: Isle of Wight



PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:35 pm    Post subject: On footpath with permission? Reply with quote

I know someone with a gravel track on their land, marked as a public footpath. They don't mind if I drive along it, although I have not yet.

If I do, I am worried some rambler will give my reg to the police or council. If so, am I going to get a knock on the door? Shocked
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Henry.
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 03 Jul 2008
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Location: north wales


1992 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have public footpaths running across our fields ect.

Nothing they can do if you have permission or if you own it.

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Never be afraid to try something new... after all the arc was built by amateurs, but titanic was built by professionals.
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paul_c
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Joined: 17 May 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No worries, just make sure your 'permission' is solid, just in case something happens and you need the landowner to back you up on it.
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LlaniGraham
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Joined: 06 Nov 2005
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Location: Llanidloes



PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get it in writing.
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Rossko
Articulating


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Be sure to prepare for driving on a footpath with permission, the same as driving on a regular road. It is a public highway of a sort - so your motor must be taxed, insured, MoT, you'll be properly licensed, wearing seatbelts, taking due care for other users, etc. etc. Just to be sure you're squeaky clean!
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Henry.
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Odometer: 2825
Location: north wales


1992 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rossko wrote:
Be sure to prepare for driving on a footpath with permission, the same as driving on a regular road. It is a public highway of a sort - so your motor must be taxed, insured, MoT, you'll be properly licensed, wearing seatbelts, taking due care for other users, etc. etc. Just to be sure you're squeaky clean!



Oh please!

Im sorry but that is a load of rubbish! If what you have said is true, i should be hung draw and quartered!

Your trying to tell me that i cannot drive round my land in my un taxed and un insured truck because i cross a foot path? Or my sister (10) cannot drive her quadbike over the foot path that crosses our field?

I must be breaking the law by letting cattle grase it for half the year and sheep the other half...!

__________________________________
Anything with t!ts or wheels is bound to cause problems..

Never be afraid to try something new... after all the arc was built by amateurs, but titanic was built by professionals.
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paul_c
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Joined: 17 May 2009
Odometer: 1378




PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Henry. wrote:
Rossko wrote:
Be sure to prepare for driving on a footpath with permission, the same as driving on a regular road. It is a public highway of a sort - so your motor must be taxed, insured, MoT, you'll be properly licensed, wearing seatbelts, taking due care for other users, etc. etc. Just to be sure you're squeaky clean!



Oh please!

Im sorry but that is a load of rubbish! If what you have said is true, i should be hung draw and quartered!

Your trying to tell me that i cannot drive round my land in my un taxed and un insured truck because i cross a foot path? Or my sister (10) cannot drive her quadbike over the foot path that crosses our field?

I must be breaking the law by letting cattle grase it for half the year and sheep the other half...!


Tend to agree with Henry. If you're driving on a footpath which is on your own land, you're on your own land and you're not on a road, ie because its not a vehicular ROW but a footpath.

HOWEVER if a BOAT or UUCR crossed your land, you may well have to comply with the rules of the road, even if its your land (for the sake of other road users). But then you might be able to drive ALONGSIDE the official road, but not on it, and therefore be exempt.

OK Think of it another way - what if you had 2 fields and a country lane (say, UCR, tarmac'd) was between them. Officially to cross the road from one field to another, you'd need to obey the rules of the road while on it (crossing). The need to obey them is due to it being a road, not it being 'owned' by the highways agency or the council, etc etc, right?

TBH I'm not 100% sure myself so I'd be interested to hear people's views on it.
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Rossko
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Joined: 23 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, I didn't say it was sensible or often enforced. Rolling Eyes

A Public Footpath is a Public Highway, and that status overrides any "private land" considerations. As it should; else the landowner could park lorries, build walls, plant trees etc. on it and be immune from the law. Wouldn't want that, would we?

To use your motor on a Public Highway, you have to comply with a bunch of laws. It makes no odds if you are the landowner or his mate. Yes, it is breaking several laws for your 10 year old sister to ride a quad across a footpath. Of course, she can do what she likes alongside the footpath. No-one will take any notice at all until she knocks a bobblehat over, and then the full weight of the law might come to bear...

For the benefit of the original poster, who wanted to be legal, just make sure you are fully legal so no-one can give you a hard time in any way.

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Roger
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Joined: 25 Feb 2008
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Location: Redditch Worcestershire



PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Henry. wrote:
Rossko wrote:
Be sure to prepare for driving on a footpath with permission, the same as driving on a regular road. It is a public highway of a sort - so your motor must be taxed, insured, MoT, you'll be properly licensed, wearing seatbelts, taking due care for other users, etc. etc. Just to be sure you're squeaky clean!



Oh please!

Im sorry but that is a load of rubbish! If what you have said is true, i should be hung draw and quartered!

Your trying to tell me that i cannot drive round my land in my un taxed and un insured truck because i cross a foot path? Or my sister (10) cannot drive her quadbike over the foot path that crosses our field?

I must be breaking the law by letting cattle grase it for half the year and sheep the other half...!


As a land owner, you have the right to drive anywhere on your land, and that includes any form of public right of way.

As the land owner you may give permission for other people to do the same.

As you would be driving on a public right of way, it could be argued that you must comply with all aspects of the law regarding the legality of your vehicle and yourself. This includes the land owner.

In the past a farmer was prosecuted for driving on a footpath across his land in a state of inebriation.

That's the law bit out of the way.

We all know that farmers love quad bikes because they are cheaper than a 4x4 and can go places a 4x4 can't. We also know that they don't give a fig for the law regarding the legality of what they do on their bikes.

Saw one on Sunday last in rural Warwickshire, himself his son and 5 dogs, and that was just for starters.

This is why I used the statement "It could be argued" because it is a grey area in law.

In reality it should not matter because your motor is fully legal and so are you !!!!

If on the other hand you are driving a shed across your mates farm, then I suggest you know the whereabouts of any RoW that you may encounter.

Forewarned is forearmed.

Roger
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XrHiNo
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have a written agreement with British waterways that allows us to drive along the canal towpath for the purpose of maintaining fences, occassionally I use it as access to a field that we can't get to after heavy rain but I always carry a roll of barbed wire and a hammer and staples in the back just in case someone gets arsey with me.

So, if anyone says owt just tell them you're checking the fencing because you've had some horses escape. They won't question that Wink
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Nathaniel
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 13 May 2003
Odometer: 17901
Location: North, North Yorkshire


1979 Suzuki LJ

PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Henry. wrote:
Rossko wrote:
Be sure to prepare for driving on a footpath with permission, the same as driving on a regular road. It is a public highway of a sort - so your motor must be taxed, insured, MoT, you'll be properly licensed, wearing seatbelts, taking due care for other users, etc. etc. Just to be sure you're squeaky clean!



Oh please!

Im sorry but that is a load of rubbish! If what you have said is true, i should be hung draw and quartered!

Your trying to tell me that i cannot drive round my land in my un taxed and un insured truck because i cross a foot path? Or my sister (10) cannot drive her quadbike over the foot path that crosses our field?

I must be breaking the law by letting cattle grase it for half the year and sheep the other half...!



Actually I do think that if you have public access on your land then you MUST have insurance on any motorvehicle used on that land....

Because it becomes a "Public Place"
Which is a WIDE ranging term...

Its complicated

Quote:
Definition of a road/highway and public place

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Useful definitions and facts in relation to traffic offences:

Road:

A road is defined as follows under Section 192(1) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 as follows:

"Any Highway and any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes.."

Generally a road stretches to the boundary fences or grass verges adjacent to it including any pavements (as stated in Worth v Brooks [1959] Crim LR 855)

If a vehicle is partly on a road and partly on some other privately owned land it can be treated as being "on the road" for the purposes of the road traffic legislation (Randell v Motor Insurer's Bearu [1969] 1 All ER 21)

"Public Roads" which are refered to in the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 are those roads which are repairable at the public expense.


Public Place under the Road Traffic Act

In order for it to be proevn that somewhere is a "Public Place" for the purposes of road traffic offences it must be shown by the prosicution that:

Those people who are admitted to the place in question are members of the public and are admitted as such, not as members of some special or particular class of the public (eg people belonging to an exclusive club) or as a result of some special characteristic tha is not shared by the public at large, and;

Those people are so admitted with the permission, express or implied, of the owner of the land in question.

(DPP v Vivier [1991]RTR 205)

Places that have stated cases that show them to be public places are:

1. A privately-owned Caravan site open to campers (DDP v Vivier [1991] RTR 205)

2. A school playground used outside of school hours as a leisure park by members of the public (Rodger v Normand 1994 SCCR 861)

3. The "Inward Freight Immigration Lanes" at Dover Eastern Docks (DPP v Coulman [1993] RTR 230)

4. A field used in connection with an agricultural show (Paterson v Ogilvey 1957 SLT 354)

5. A Multi Storey car park (Bowman v DPP [1991] RTR 263)


A Highway

A "Highway" is a way over which the public has a right to pass and re-pass by foot, horse or vehicle, or with animals (Lang v Hindhaugh [1986] RTR 271)

Highways will include public bridleways and footpaths; they also include public bridges over which they pass. For any further definitions of a highway see Section 329 of the Highways Act 1980.

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Nat

If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out
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paul_c
Off-Road Guru


Joined: 17 May 2009
Odometer: 1378




PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good informative post, Nathaniel. I think the case of a quad on a field with a footpath, could be interpreted as not needing the insurance so long as it was definitely off the footpath, since the public don't have an expectation to access the whole field, just the footpath bit of it. If it were an agricultural show on THAT field, then it would, while the show is going on, be a public place. Obviously (in my mind) crossing a footpath or road etc and you then need to comply with the laws on tax/insurance/etc.
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GED
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if anyone ever questioned me henry, i would throw up this little gem

Quote:
which are repairable at the public expense.


then hit them with the running costs of the field and boundarys for the last 50 years
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Henry.
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Odometer: 2825
Location: north wales


1992 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said footpath runs across the top of our road side field. The council replaced the style a few years ago, and when they found the gate padlocked (adjacent to style) they came down and demanded we took the lock off.

We pointed out that there was a cattle pen in the top corner, and the field is locked so that people carnt pen up the cattle/sheep and drive away with them! The council man then said the gate has to be unlocked for access to the field (so why did we need a style) so that people who may not be able to get over the style can get onto the footpath. My dads last words to him was well he will **** at the other end of the field then, no gate there mr!

So now the gate is unlocked, so they can open it. Rolling Eyes


Maybe its worth looking into, as i legally might not be able to tow a trailer full of hay, silage, muck ect on my own land because we will cross the footpath to get around the headland..


And as you said Ged, the up keep of everything does cost, £20 a hour fir hedge cutting, new gate, gate posts, could even argue the loss of crop when they stick to the same track throughout the year! Laughing

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Anything with t!ts or wheels is bound to cause problems..

Never be afraid to try something new... after all the arc was built by amateurs, but titanic was built by professionals.
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paul_c
Off-Road Guru


Joined: 17 May 2009
Odometer: 1378




PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Henry. wrote:

Maybe its worth looking into, as i legally might not be able to tow a trailer full of hay, silage, muck ect on my own land because we will cross the footpath to get around the headland..
:


The situation is no different to any other field you'd need to access by crossing a road, eg if it was on the other side of a country road, etc. For farmers, having a ROW through your land is a bit of a burden, although often the council will look to the landowner to do repairs which the council are responsible for, and use them as a contractor.
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terence
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

be absolutley certain you dont have a firearm in the wagon , when you go anywhere near it.

its a public place.


round these parts , they use a basic rule of thumb, if postie can get his van there you need to have a RTV to drive there.

as for the quad etc etc . if you injure someone it wont be covered , you need public liability insurance not motor insurance to indemnify you against third party claims.
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