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Clutch not disengaging enough, need to sort asap

 
 
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JamesVFR
Winch Assistant


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Odometer: 63




PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:28 am    Post subject: Clutch not disengaging enough, need to sort asap Reply with quote

Hi all

Ive got a series 1 trialler on rrc axles
v8 on a series 2a gearbox
Problem ive got with the clutch is that with just 1 pump of the pedal the slave cylinder does not push clutch release arm far enough to disengage clutch

If i pump it very quickly it pumps the slave out a bit at a time like a hydraulic jack + pushes realease arm far enough to disengage

Its the 2a slave clylinder which sits vertical on drivers side of the bellhousing with what looks like an original series 1 master cylinder

What ive been thinking is that the capacity in the master is too small to move the slave in just 1 push + when pumped quickly the master refills from reservior + pumps more fluid through + eventually pushing it right out

Is there anyone that can confirm this or has any ideas of how to get round this?

Anyone know the bore + length of the series 1 clutch master?

Cheers all
James
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andyb66
Just got MTs


Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Odometer: 236
Location: Ferndown, near Bournemouth



PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds to me like the seals in one of other of the cylinders is leaking a little and needs two pumps to get enough pressure......or there is some air in the system somewhere.

Both of those are fairly easy to check/rectify.

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Andyb

http://www.challengemotorsport.com

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JamesVFR
Winch Assistant


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Odometer: 63




PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what i thought
slave was leaking slightly so on went a new slave + the master has no leaks at all
No air anywhere

After a few pumps + slave is fully out, if i keep my foot down it doesnt slowly creep back, it does stay in place
Also clutch is very very heavy,

all of this is making me think that the master is to small for the slave
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Ray_Jnr
Banned!


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Odometer: 4671
Location: The Northeast


1987 Land Rover 90 TD

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i had this exact problem on my 90,

get a friend to push the clutch down slowly and you may find that the resivour fills up. on mine the seal that stops flow back to the resivour when the pedal is pushed down was knackered, i just bought a new seal kit off ebay for £4 and it rectified the problem.

oh and if your master was too small for the slave no amounts of pumping would make any difference.

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Founder of the Difflock Ginger Goatee Club!
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Rossko
Articulating


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Odometer: 757




PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Putting "feels heavy" together with "not doing much" says there is summat wrong.
Has it ever worked better? It might be a mismatch of clutch parts, release lever lengths etc.
If it did use to work better, then something has broke. Master seals turned to sticky mush perhaps, or release arm pivot has collapsed or seized.

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www.glass-uk.org
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w3526602
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Odometer: 10754
Location: Glynneath, South Wales



PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I sold my Haynes, so can't refer to it, but I'm pretty certain that the Series One used rods to operate the clutch, not hydraulics.

But.... if your master cylinder is too small, then the pedal will be LIGHT.

If you can pump up the movement, then it is slow to return fluid to the M/C. Suspect the flex hose......if you have one. (Unless you a pumping like Bugs Bunny approaching the glory stroke). If hose swells under pressure, replace it.

OR

You have a spring pulling the slave piston too far back into the cylinder.
Remove spring, push piston back as far as you can, then adjust pushrod to leave just a little free play. I suppose you should then replace the spring.

Where is your master cylinder?

602

__________________________________
Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough.
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JamesVFR
Winch Assistant


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Odometer: 63




PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If im honest its never realy worked well for me, my dad had it before me and used it once with no problems at all, prev owner never had any probs either

The seals were leaking on the slave when i picked it up from him as it had been standing for a long time

There is a flexi hose which although still does move, isnt as flexible as a new hose

When pushed the pedal does rise back up but the slave is very slow to return

I took the slave off earlier leaving it plumbed up + with no pressure aginst the piston one pump of the pedal pushes the slave out almost to the circlip but had to put all my weight on it to return the piston

Theres no spring to pull it back + the master is in same place as rrc/discovery
I looked at the slave on my disco + rangie + it actualy looks identical to the one on this trialler

cheers all for the help
James
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w3526602
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Odometer: 10754
Location: Glynneath, South Wales



PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Conflict!

You say one pump of the pedal will push slave piston almost to end of the cylinder? In which case, the is no more travel for you to pump up. Did you push the piston fully in before that single pump? It should be possible to grab the linkage and force the piston right back, without removing it from the gearbox. Try it, adjust pushrod if appropriate.

Slow return of the slave suggests that the flex hose is swollen inside. Press pedal down,and hold, crack open the bleed nipple. Does piston return any quicker?

Was the pedal heavy when you tested the cylinder when removed from gearbox?

Does your pedal dangle freely, within its limits? A sticky pedal can provoke strange symptoms.
602

__________________________________
Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough.
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w3526602
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Odometer: 10754
Location: Glynneath, South Wales



PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doh!

Also try clutch with filler cap removed from reservoir. A blocked pinhole can also provoke strange symptoms.

602

__________________________________
Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough.
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JamesVFR
Winch Assistant


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Odometer: 63




PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the slave fitted to the box the piston will not go fully out with 1 pump of the pedal but with it off it will almost
When fitted its very very heavy but off the car it feels a little bit irme than it does when bleeding it

would clutch be heavy + hard if clutch swollen inside?
Im wondering if the seals are leaaking between themselves when under pressure as it seems ok when theres no force on the slave

bit stuck for the moment as i now need a new pushrod, noticed its bent, took it out to try + straighten it + damaged the thread Mad

Pedal dangles freely + is smooth in moving

James
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w3526602
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Odometer: 10754
Location: Glynneath, South Wales



PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James,

A flex hose can both be blocked and stretchable.

Your left foot is a lot stronger than the clutch pressure springs, so you can overcome a blocked hose, but its reluctant to return.

A pipe that swells under pressure will need fluid to fill that swelling, so piston will not move so far.

So the hose MIGHT be your problem, but I would expect pedal to be heavy, even if there is no load ...... unless you press slowly.

Grab the hose, and "take its pulse" while you are pressing the pedal. If you can feel it swell, there's your problem.

I'm guessing the slave is standard S2 set-up, but just in case ....... I assume the bleed nipple IS at the highest point?

602

__________________________________
Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough.
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thebiglad
Guest








PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if it's the same on your clutch setup, but on TDi Disco/Defenders there is a clutch fork which over time gets weaker to the point where the pivot pushes through the metal of the fork.

It couldn't be something like that could it?
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w3526602
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Odometer: 10754
Location: Glynneath, South Wales



PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

The Series 1 and 2 and 2A had a rod going from side to side behind the clutch pressure assembly. The rod had fingers that pushed the release bearing. The rod stuck out the side of the clutch cover. A tube with a gim pin at each end transfered the twisting movement to another rod which had a lever pushed by the hydraulics (or rods on the S1). The S3 had a much neater LOOKING system, but I think it was prone to same problems as the later Defender. ?????

There is a problem with the early system, that I have read about, but never actually met. The holes in the end of the transverse rods can wear, so that the hole becomes hourglass shape in cross-section. The more it wears, the nearer the middle of the gim pin takes the strain, and eventually the pin will snap. The only cure is to replace the rods. Wear in the holes in the connecting tube are not really important, cos you can adjust for that wear.

However, I don't think that is your problem, as you say the drybollo..... sorry.... hydraulics are not moving far enough.

Can you confirm that the slave cylinder is mounted vertically, on a gantry, on the drivers side. The bleed nipple should be pointing straight up.

602

__________________________________
Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough.
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JamesVFR
Winch Assistant


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Odometer: 63




PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes the slave is mounted vertical with bleed nipple facing upwards,

a while ago when i put this gearbox in i remember moving the clutch mechanism + it wasnt stiff, was nice + smooth

ive measured how much the piston in the slave moves + its about 11-12 mm from as far back as the piston will go to fully out at the circlip
I can slowly return the piston with thumb about halfway but then gets very very hard to push back + cant do it by hand

Ive found in the garage a slave for a 4 speed rangie which if fitted under the bracket instead of on top looks like it would then be in the same position, looks like it has a lot longer travel but is larger in diameter though

the piston definately does not move all its travel when fitted + under load but does when off

James
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w3526602
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Odometer: 10754
Location: Glynneath, South Wales



PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James,

You should be able to push the slave piston right back into the cylinder, and there should then be slack in the slave push rod. If there isn't any slack, you have a problem. If there is lots of slack, adjust most (not all) out of it. It sounds like the circlip is preventing full movement of the push rod....... no that can't be right, cos you can pump it up.

If the slave piston will not go fully home, find out why. The bore could be damaged. The PO could have deliberately inserted an obstacle behind the piston, cos "it seemed a good idea at the time". And there is something at the back of my mind which suggests that some slaves had a coil spring inside. Could the PO have fitted a stronger spring, for reasons known only to himself? Or could the spring have fallen over? And is there a spring anyway?

Look into the reservoir, while somebody gives the pedal one long pump. Is there a surge of bubbles or dirty fluid? If so, your master cylinder is shot. Sod it! Fit a new master and slave and flex hose, that way you eliminate all those from the problem. Probably about £30 altogether from Paddocks.

Be lucky.

602

__________________________________
Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough.
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