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emmegas single point lpg help needed

 
 
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Chris Ennis
Just got MTs


Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Odometer: 349
Location: rossendale lancs


1992 Range Rover 3.9 Vogue SE

PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 9:45 pm    Post subject: emmegas single point lpg help needed Reply with quote

hi guys, my 92 3.9 v8 RRC wont run on LPG, it runs fine on petrol but as soon as you switch it over it dies, i've got power to the solinoids and when i switch it over i can hear the vaporiser working and i can smell the gas but it just refuses to run on it,

anyone got any ideas???

also is there a certain amount of turns the big screw valve (after the vaporiser) needs to be in or out, i've only just bought the car so i dont know if its been messed with.

also no2. does the lpg system have a elec pulse pickup i.e off the alternator or the coil for the spark

and sorry about not knowing the technical terms, i've not had a lpg vehicle for a few years

cheers chris
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Rossko
Articulating


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Odometer: 757




PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 1:13 am    Post subject: Re: emmegas single point lpg help needed Reply with quote

paenut1985 wrote:
hi guys, my 92 3.9 v8 RRC wont run on LPG, it runs fine on petrol but as soon as you switch it over it dies, i've got power to the solinoids and when i switch it over i can hear the vaporiser working and i can smell the gas but it just refuses to run on it,


Can't tell from here. Can you smell gas coming out the back of the vaporiser? Split diaphragm. Can you smell gas when you try to changeover? Way too much, flooding it... or a bit has fallen off. If you operate it with the gas hose pulled off you should barely notice what comes out, barely hear a hiss from the vap. Beware sparks from hotwiring solenoids if you try this.
Might even have an electrical fault or part missing/unplugged, so that it doesn't turn the petrol off. Dual fuel will stall it by flooding.
Is it difficult to restart on petrol once its failed to changeover?

paenut1985 wrote:
also is there a certain amount of turns the big screw valve (after the vaporiser) needs to be in or out, i've only just bought the car so i dont know if its been messed with.


The screw is there for individual adjustment to suit the car, can't guess where yours should be.

paenut1985 wrote:
also no2. does the lpg system have a elec pulse pickup i.e off the alternator or the coil for the spark


It should have, so that it can shut the gas off if the engine stalls (e.g. in an accident) but be warned there are a scary number of DIY jobs out there without the refinement.

cheers, Ross K

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Chris Ennis
Just got MTs


Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Odometer: 349
Location: rossendale lancs


1992 Range Rover 3.9 Vogue SE

PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi ross and thanks,

i'm not sure what i did but it runs now, i think i need a new solinoid on top of the vaporiser as the plastic has a crack in it.

it wont start on gas at all though it fires once and then you have to switch to petrol and it takes a while to start,

i'll take some pics of the setup but from what i can tell its wired to all the injectors, the coil and it was wired to the inertia switch under the passenger seat but i've had to remove that bit for now due to a falty switch

does anyone know roughly how much it is to get a lpg system certified for insurance purposes and for my piece of mind too

chris
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Chris Ennis
Just got MTs


Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Odometer: 349
Location: rossendale lancs


1992 Range Rover 3.9 Vogue SE

PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh and the smells not to bad now but i can here the vaporiser running??? as soon as i switch the switch over when the engines not running, is that right??

chris
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mogmaner
Winch Assistant


Joined: 26 Feb 2009
Odometer: 91
Location: NOTTINGHAM



PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 2:40 pm    Post subject: LPG Reply with quote

IF YOU CAN HEAR GAS FLOWING THERE IS A FOULT WITH THE VAPOURISER ,AS IT SHOULD ONLY FLOW UODER VACUME FROM THE ENGINE .
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Rossko
Articulating


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Odometer: 757




PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, that's not quite true, it depends on the system.

There are vaporisers that only flow when vacuum is present, so called 'pneumatic control'.

This chap has an electrically controlled one, as it has a solenoid. These should dribble very low pressure gas when energised.

A proper LPG control switch will offer a 'prime' facility - when keyed on and switched to gas, it will turn on the gas for just a second or two to prime the manifold with a small dollop of gas.

A homebrew cobble-up obviously won't do that - if it were wired to some RPM sensing as it should be for safety reasons, it would do nothing. If it doesn't have the right safety features (and wiring to the inertia switch is a start, but won't pass certification) then it might pee gas continuously with no rpm.

Once too much gas has got into the manifold the engine won't start - it's flooded (even if the plugs stay dry!). Even when the gas is switched off, it's a pig to restart because the manifoild still contains excess gas. That matches what's been described, no?

By the way, I shouldn't worry too much about a cracked plastic shroud on the solenoid coil - it is common and rarely linked to an actual electrical failure. Think on it ... if the solenoid coil fails you just don't get any gas. What's going on here seems to be excess gas!

Overall, the starting issues may just be a lack of proper control switch. Or your vap may be stuffed.

Certification may be around £100 or so, but you might have some remedial work to bring it up to spec, as I've been hinting. As part of the test involves hookup to exhaust analyser, they might give it a proper setting up too which might be all it really needs.

cheers, Ross K

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Chris Ennis
Just got MTs


Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Odometer: 349
Location: rossendale lancs


1992 Range Rover 3.9 Vogue SE

PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks ross thats some more good info,

how would i go about or where would i take a rpm feed from for a safety switch?

i've gathered that i need somthing to tell something else to switch the gas off when then engines not running

it acutally seems like a very simple system with a 2 way control switch in the cab with a gauge and a amber light on the gauge that flashes sometimes( still not sure what that means), then theres 7or8 wires i know 2 are for the gauge and theres a main power in and the blue is the feed out to the solinoids.

one thing i have just realised is that there are 2 solinoids, one on the vaporiser and another on the inner wing with a filter underneath it which i think is wired to the coil could this be the safety switch as the only other electrical part is the 2 relays for the injectors.

thanks

chris
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Rossko
Articulating


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Odometer: 757




PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See if you can identify that switch you have, then we can comment sensibly on the wiring.

A solenoid on the vap and a seperate filter/shutoff isn't unusual, but both should be wired to the blue wire (eventually - there may be various splices). You'd be needing a solenoid on the tank(s) too to meet current regs, which should also be on the same blue-wire circuit.

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Chris Ennis
Just got MTs


Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Odometer: 349
Location: rossendale lancs


1992 Range Rover 3.9 Vogue SE

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

right i have pictures and i've drawn up a diagram









there a couple of things, what is the purple wire supposed to go or do and theres a amber light to the left of the gauge on the switch that flashes and when you rev the engine is stys on solid

also if i fit a relay in the blue wire and take the switch feed off the alternator battery light wire(providing it is live when the engines running and not when it stops) it would make a good safety me thinks as its the only thing i can think of that changes when the engine is running ( or have i had 1 too many tinnies and missed something obvious)

thanks in advance

chris
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Chris Ennis
Just got MTs


Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Odometer: 349
Location: rossendale lancs


1992 Range Rover 3.9 Vogue SE

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

forgot to mention that everything has emmegas marked on it and its 6 wires from the switch

chris
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Rossko
Articulating


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Odometer: 757




PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's good stuff, helps a lot.

The brown wire to the coil -ve is there purely to detect an RPM signal. The Emmegas switch should be taking care of all the safety issues, you don't need any extra relays, you just need to get it working right.

The purple wire is 'spare' as your emulators are connected to the blue wire - its just a delayed version, ignore.

I think your switch may be one of these -
http://www.emmegas.net/downloads/eng/TECHNICAL_AREA/OLD_MANUALS/CHANGE-OVER_SWITCHES/DCM-233_ENG.pdf

In which case it should always start on petrol (winking yellow) and change after the throttle has been blipped (steady yellow). If it makes a muff of that changeover, you probably have a vaporiser fault or setting up issue.

You'd best identify the model number on the switch and choose the appropriate info sheet
http://www.emmegas.net/downloads_commutatori.php

and maybe go through the RPM setting up for confidence that it's working as it should.

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