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A little trailer law?
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w3526602
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Joined: 10 Jun 2002
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:40 am    Post subject: A little trailer law? Reply with quote

Hi,

I think I'm going paranoic in my old age.

My trailer has no brakes so is limited to 750kg, and that is what I intend to stamp on the little plate I'm going to make.

My Land Rover has an unladen weight of 1300kg (say), so can only tow an unbraked trailer of half that weight, ie - 650kg.

Question. Is my Landy allowed to pull my trailer, plated at 750kg, if I ensure that the actual weight when loaded is less than 650kg?

Doh! Just looked in my Indespension Trailer Manual, where it says "half the kerb weight". So that's an extra 75kg for me (and the rest), and 10 gallons of diesel.......30kg? So half of 1300kg + 75kg + 30kg = 702.5Kg.

Any comments? Pour molten lead into the chassis rails?

602

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nivapilot
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oooh, don't know about that, but trailer law can be found on this site..http://www.ntta.co.uk/
And kerb wieghts can be found here...http://www.cuddles.abelgratis.net/landrover.htm

Hope that helps.
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16 RN 49
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Joined: 26 May 2006
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2001 Land Rover Defender

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In this link (same as your other thread):
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicles/vssafe...ementsfortrailers

It states:
Quote:
In the case of light trailers, that is less than 3500kg maximum laden weight, there is not any specified relationship in UK law between the weight of the towing vehicle and the weight of the trailer.

And:
Quote:
For M1 category vehicles (motor vehicles used for the carriage of passengers and comprising not more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat) the maximum permissible trailer weight is quoted by the vehicle manufacturer. Alternatively, the vehicle manufacturer may provide a maximum gross train weight (the laden weight of the trailer plus the laden weight of the towing vehicle). If this is exceeded it is possible that the Courts or Insurance Companies may take the view that this constitutes a danger.

But most landies aren't M1, they are N1 (I think, except Station Wagons).

It's still vague, though, I think you'll need a copy of the C&U regs.

Pete
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norseman45
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The law is based on the maximum design gross weight/mass of the trailer (in this case 750kg) so loading it under that capacity does not change the rules relating to the towing vehicle's kerb weight Sad
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crazymac
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I see it (regardless of any gobbldygook in legislation! ) The maximum weight of an unbraked trailer is 750KG. I see CARS pulling that on a regular basis so why are we to worry when we are using a Landrover??

No policeman knows the trailer legislation, he just knows that 750KG is the unbraked limit.

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old110
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ULM is based on vehicle in unladen form (i.e. no excess masses onboard which arent part of the vehicle but all fluids) plus driver (68kg plus 7kg luggage mass spread evenly over the 'luggage area') plus a full tank of fuel. (diesel is approx 0.85kg per litre)

If the landy is registered as private light goods it should come under M1 regs.
If its classed as a goods vehicle it will be N1.

so 1300kg plus 75kg Driver and luggage and approx 38kg of diesel for unladen mass.

However if the vehicle is young enough to have been type approved the ULM will be available somewhere and they (VOSA etc) must go by this.
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w3526602
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Oh dear, what have I started. Confused I think I could load my trailer (ULW 400kg) onto a smaller trailer, but with a 650kg MAM, and tow that, but I can't tow the bigger trailer by itself when empty. Something about Law and Ass?

However if the vehicle is young enough to have been type approved the ULM will be available somewhere and they (VOSA etc) must go by this.

I've been told recently that new vehicles have their ULW shown on the V5, but called something else. "Weight in Service", or something like that.

Also been told that nobody has the authority to tell me to empty my truck so they can check its unladen weight. ???

But if staying legal isn't too difficult, thats what I'd prefer to do.

602

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16 RN 49
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Joined: 26 May 2006
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2001 Land Rover Defender

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

w3526602 wrote:
However if the vehicle is young enough to have been type approved the ULM will be available somewhere and they (VOSA etc) must go by this.

I believe this is a quoted Gross Train Weight (GTW) and if it's stamped then, yes, it has to be used. Having said that, I read somewhere that if a vehicle hasn't got a GTW then it can't tow anything (such as the Ford KA). Not sure when that came into force, though. I should imagine you don't have to worry about that!

EDIT, 1st August 1998 is when type approval came into force, which included type approval for towbar mountings etc and is when GTW was started to be used.

Regarding what Defenders are classed as (M1 or N1) I think it's listed somewhere on the LR site (for current models) that they're all N1 except the Station Wagons which are M1 (except the SW with the utility pack, this has now been classed as N1).

I think the benchmark is don't exceed any quoted weight (GTW, front / rear axles, nose weight, tow weight, trailer weight, etc...).

Out of interest, 602, does your Landie have any quoted max weights on it's plate?
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trailer guy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woo.....hoo! if there's one thing that'll get a response it's asking about towing law! it's a nightmare. like i've said before many traffic officers find it painful too. To add my tuppence, my understanding of the law is:

Unless a vehicle manufacturere specifies restrictions for unbraked trailers, Regulation 87 of the C&U Regs will apply. This states that unbraked trailers may only be towed by vehicles having a kerbside weight of at least twice the actual in-use weight of the trailer.

e.g. a vehicle with a kerbside weight of 1000kg is restricetd to towing an unbraked trailer of 500kg (including load), even if the trailer has a MAM of 750kg.

(ps. MAM is just the posh new EC term for maximum gross weight!)

but just to throw a grey light on it - what do you class as your kerbside weight?!... Shocked

regards, trailer guy

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norseman45
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazymac wrote:
As I see it (regardless of any gobbldygook in legislation! ) The maximum weight of an unbraked trailer is 750KG. I see CARS pulling that on a regular basis so why are we to worry when we are using a Landrover??

No policeman knows the trailer legislation, he just knows that 750KG is the unbraked limit.


Don't be too sure Exclamation The car owners you mention either don't know the law or they just hope they won't get stopped, a state of mind Question which in most cases works, but not all coppers (esp. traffic) qualify for the title plod

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16 RN 49
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2001 Land Rover Defender

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trailer guy wrote:
Unless a vehicle manufacturere specifies restrictions for unbraked trailers, Regulation 87 of the C&U Regs will apply. This states that unbraked trailers may only be towed by vehicles having a kerbside weight of at least twice the actual in-use weight of the trailer.

I don't have a copy of the C&U regs, unfortunately, but what you've stated flys in the face of the first quote in my first post above. You're right, it is a nightmare! Rolling Eyes

And then there's the '85%' rule, or whatever it is, but I've learned that's just a recommendation and not actual law.

Do you think they keep us in the dark for fun? At least the GTW / type approval has been introduced / agreed so owners of cars post 1st August 1998, who care about being legal, know where they stand.

Googling "Defender "Gross Train Weight"", other than having this thread on page 2, seems to give the GTW of a 90 at 5900KG and the 110 at 6450KG (other sources suggest other numbers). No idea how accurate that is. Can't find GTW or similar on LRs website. All it says is that it can tow upto 3500KGs.

Clear as mud. Rolling Eyes
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MYTHING
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy

Woo hoo, lets all have fun..............trailer law?

As Trailer Guy says it is a minefield, however to also add some comments

All non commercial vehicles are M1, commercial vehicles adapted to carry passengers are M1, so a commercial vehicle I.E a Transit van does not need a type approved tow bar, however a Transit that is converted or made by Ford to carry passengers (I.E. A minbus) has to have a type approved tow bar therefore most tow bar manufactureres type approve their commercial bars that have dual function, Land Rover, Disco, RR would all comply with the above.

Re commment about KA. Ford neglected to include tow bar mounting point specifications when the KA was type approved, therefore it is not Type Approved for a tow bar and therefore can not have one, that is why the misconception exhists about towing cappability with KA's. Ford Fiesta 1.4, Smart cars etc also drops in to this annomoly and a few others.

To try and help clarrify......M1 and N1 is about type approval and not towing cappabilities.
Regarding towing cappability and the Law. Their was a test case regarding theoretical overloading, this would be where a vehicle tow's a trailer say 3500KG gross but only has a towing cappability of 2000KG. In the mid 90's some Police forces had success with prosecutions for theoretical overloading, following a test case the ruling was "the towing cappability of the towing vehicle or gross weight of the trailer, whichever is the lower is the dominating wieght" this means it is quite legal for a Land Rover or any other vehicle to tow a 750KG gross unbraked trailer even though the towing cappability is 650KG.

Personnaly I would take my Land Rover to a weighbridge and get it weighed (what is in it at the time is your choice) I would weigh the trailer, I would take copies of the two weighbridge tickets and a copy of my insurance etc etc all in a nice folder and if stopped I would demonstrate why I was right, at the end of the day the Police are looking for people who are dangerouse and have no knowledge not the ones that are sensible and have looked in to the law.


You are more likely to be prosecuted for an illegal snooper (speed trap sensor) than anything else

Anyway enjoy France.

Regards
Mything

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bigammer
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yep its a minefield, i`m having real trouble finding the correct towing limit for my 3.0td surf, some say its 1500kg some say its 2200kg thing is, i need it to be able to tow more, well i know it will tow more ahem cough cough, towed my rangerover on a trailer no probs butwant to stay legal, may have to sell it and get a Landcruiser..
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jonkem
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your Surf should have the Train Weight on the VIN plate, most probably around 2000kg same as a 70 series Cruiser.
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yesterday I was helping a friend (and a buddy) check out an IW horsebox. The idea was for her and a pal to buy this thing between them so each could take up to 2 horses to events etc either together or separately.

Problem: the trailer is plated at 2340Kg my friend has an LR F2 (max towing 2000kg) and her buddy drives a Hyundai Trajety (1550kg).

I reckoned my friend could get away with it (being blonde and rather pleasing to the eye) but the Hyundai would actually be dangerous even with 1 horse but I had to advise both of them then AFAIK they would be breaking the Law.

My own car trailer came with 3 plates: 1200kg, 1500kg and 2000kg. This is so I can 'down plate' the trailer to match the tow vehicle to keep me within the law. It is manufactured to be a 2000kg MGW trailer but it's to carry the Alldays which, with the trailer weighs under 1200kg.

The issue is less getting stopped by the Police but what happens if you are in a collision and you are 'over plated' but within the car's towing limit. Are you still insured?

Careful where you step, it might be onto an exploding thing Shocked

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sae70
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah I hope you don't mind but I've stumbled over this thread searching for information on the legislation regarding the mounting heights of tow hitches & it looks like some of you here are potential trailer Gurus Smile

My query is what are (if any) the regulations for the mounting heights of Arrow

50mm tow balls Question

Combination tow hitches Question (50mm ball & pin/jaw)

Pin & jaw hitches Question

And Pintles Question

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loosebruce704
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dont know about any of that Embarassed Laughing but hopefully you can help me as i am young and didn't pass my test before the change in laws i am meant to do a test so as i can tow a trailer above certain weight/ under certain size etc etc so was wondering if anyone knows exactly what i can tow.

cheers bruce

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RichardD
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given the huge variety of vehicles ride heights I can only assume that there is nothing in the Law on towing that determines the ride heights when towing.

My caravan and trailer have the same wheels/tyres but the trailer's hitch (to the bottom when level) is 10" above the ground but the caravan is 12". This is determined by the chassis height and the hitch size and mounting style.

I had this problem when designing the 19" drop plate for the Volvo and found that for normal use 12" +/- 1" was 'normal' for towing trailers and caravans measured from the ground to the base of the ball (or hitch) when measured with everything level.

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TheBigPurpleOne
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bruce im also in the same position ... you can tow 750kg or a trailer plated to the same weight as your vehicle but not heavier... with the train weight not exceeding 3500kg
i.e in my 110 i can tow 750kg or a braked trailer plated to 1700kg (my 110 was 1700kg on the weigh bridge)
basically most caravans ad maybe a few tippers

cant wait to do trailer test Very Happy

as for standard height i think its 14" to the top of the ball as the standard measurement but its probs easier to pay out for an adjustable sliding one from your local farm supplies

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LlaniGraham
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NRS91 wrote:

i.e in my 110 i can tow 750kg or a braked trailer plated to 1700kg (my 110 was 1700kg on the weigh bridge)


Beware, it is the PLATED weight not the weighbridge weight.

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w3526602
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Not quite.

The PLATED weight of the trailer must not exceed the UNLADEN weight of the tow car. If you have a new car, the unladen weight should be shown on your V5.......but called something else.

The PLATED weight of the car, plus the PLATED weight of the trailer must not exceed 3500kg. It would be nice if you could find a combination where both vehicles were plated at 1750kg.

The 85% rule is a RECOMMENDATION by the Caravan Club, and I suspect only refers to caravans.

The above is what YOU can tow. You have to look elsewhere to see what your car can tow.

602

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tacr2man
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

130 doca HCPU has gtw of 7450kg (in OZ) if thats any help Very Happy
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TheBigPurpleOne
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1987 Land Rover 90 TD

PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

to be honest the governments got they many accronyms and different legislations for the same thing its all a L.O.B ... they should scrap the the dvla and vosa and start afresh with just one set of rules in ENGLISH (maybe scottish but i doubt brown will be around much longer) ... its all just a minefield of paperbombs...
while there at it they should bring back the 25 year old rolling tax exemption Evil or Very Mad

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MYTHING
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy


sae70 to answer your question

My query is what are (if any) the regulations for the mounting heights of

50mm tow balls

It was 16" to 18" to the centre of the ball the new regulations are in metric and reduce this by approximately 1"

Combination tow hitches (50mm ball & pin/jaw)

Same but to the ball centre

Pin & jaw hitches

I do not believe there is a regulation, however I would suggest that as a ball and pin is to the ball then I would measure from the top of the jaw frame

And Pintles

Usually used by the military and a lot higher

However if you are making a tow bar and it is for a passenger vehicle (m designation) and post R registratioin you must fit a type approved tow bar as your own would be illegal.

Regards

MYTHING

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TheBigPurpleOne
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so good he said it thrice lol
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sae70
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your reply 'MYTHING' Smile

As you say there is EU legislation covering the mounting height of a 50mm tow ball that says some thing along these lines Arrow

EC Directive 94/20/EC states that the tow ball height should be between 350 and 420mm with the vehicle in the ‘laden’ condition. Laden condition may have been defined (by the manufacturer) as either fully laden (the maximum technically permitted mass of the vehicle as shown in the vehicle handbook), or, conventionally laden (defined as 68.5kg per specified passenger seat and 6.5kg of luggage per specified passenger and located in the centre of the luggage storage area).

I guess this would cover combination hitches as well due to the 50mm ball being a part of 'em Question Smile

With regards to towing pintles as you say the military use them and they are the hitch of choice for pulling a Sanky along Smile I've recently read some ware that the towing eye on a level Sanky sits 26" (660.4mm) from the ground. So a pintle can surely be mounted @ this height regardless of knowing what any legislation say Smile

So tow jaws Question Exclamation What's the legislation here then Question

Dixon Bate offer up a 5.0T rated jaw that will accept the military spec 76mm towing eye down to a minimum 40mm eye Smile So this too must have a similar mounting height of a pintle but has the less commonly used four hole mounting plate Sad

This leaves the 3.5T rated tow jaws that will take down to a 30mm towing eye and have the same fixing centres as a standard 50mm tow ball that seem to be offering up the tantalising rarity of an legal installation on our raised height toys Smile

Anyone know of any mounting height regulations regarding this type of tow jaw Question

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trailer guy
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1994 Land Rover 110

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi, i'm not sure there is a height law for the combination jaw (i'll have a dig around), but it's probably just better to be sensible about ride height.

if you get the ride height of tow vehicle and trailer pretty much the same (allowing for adequate nose load) then you're off to a good start. if you don't you can be in for a bit of trouble. Shock loads (measured between the differential movement of vehicle and trailer) of up to 35G have been recorded in some instances; this means a nose load of 80kg could momentarily become 2800kg! i wouldn't want to get my finger pinched in that!

i've got both a combination hitch and a NATO jaw on the back of my shogun and the height difference is pretty crazy - i'll post a pic - there's no adjustable height bracket i've seen that'd cover that distance! the NATO one is specifically for the off road trailer i'm building, to allow for adequate ground clearance. the combination hitch is for everything else i tow.

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MYTHING
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy

O.K. Now for the big anorak

sae70

If you speak to the tow bar manufacturers they will tell you they type approve all tow bars with a 50mm tow ball and a 25mm spacer, the only exception that I am aware of is PCT who have a little icon in their catalogue with a ball and pin picture, this details which of their tow bars have been double tested.

However as the tow bar is the same specification this leads to an annomoly....the ball on a ball and pin coupling sits about an inch higher (depending on make) so my previouse comment about standard heights has the proviso of.........so long as it is fitted with a standard 50mm ball only.

I was aware of this but was trying to keep things simple.

As you are starting to see....trailer law and logic are strange bedfellows.

sae70 I can see you wearing this trailer anorak at the next discussion at the bar regarding trailer law.............it's your size Laughing Laughing

Regards

MYTHING

The offroad trailer that trailer guy is building is not for offroading, when he dug his new drive he dug it so deep he needs an offroader and matching trailer just to be able to access it Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

ducks and runs for cover Wink

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MYTHING
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy

O.K. Now for the big anorak

sae70

If you speak to the tow bar manufacturers they will tell you they type approve all tow bars with a 50mm tow ball and a 25mm spacer, the only exception that I am aware of is PCT who have a little icon in their catalogue with a ball and pin picture, this details which of their tow bars have been double tested.

However as the tow bar is the same specification this leads to an annomoly....the ball on a ball and pin coupling sits about an inch higher (depending on make) so my previouse comment about standard heights has the proviso of.........so long as it is fitted with a standard 50mm ball only.

I was aware of this but was trying to keep things simple.

As you are starting to see....trailer law and logic are strange bedfellows.

sae70 I can see you wearing this trailer anorak at the next discussion at the bar regarding trailer law.............it's your size Laughing Laughing

Regards

MYTHING

The offroad trailer that trailer guy is building is not for offroading, when he dug his new drive he dug it so deep he needs an offroader and matching trailer just to be able to access it Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

ducks and runs for cover Wink

__________________________________
classic Range Rover 3.5 with lift and lots of mods and needs to be used more. Called THING as my Daughter said "youre not taking me to school in that thing DAD"
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bens_jeep
Just got MTs


Joined: 10 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

realistically, a trailer or towed load should be approximately level.

If you have one which is down at the nose or tail, you can expect to be stopped and ( probably ) warned, except in Northants or Notts where they issue Fixed Penalties to anything which drives, swims or flies for any reason or none at all.

the old Fiesta ( and Rover Metro ) were legal to tow small trailers. I used to own a Fiesta and tow a small one-bike skeleton trailer with my grasstrack bike on, I was once stopped, taken to a weighbridge and allowed to go; but of course they pre-dated Type Approval and had no plated towing weight.
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