Nylon Ropes

[Roger]

My nylon tow rope is now passed it's sell by date, so I am looking for a new one. So who at the moment is doing the best deals?

Roger

[Anthony]

Roger,

Is this for towing any distance or just out of a whole sort of thing?

Had you considered a tow bar for immobile vehicles with dead engines, that sort of thing. They are more comfortable to use and give far better control of the towed vehicle and you do not need to be too concerned about them running into your rear.

A KERR is the next best thing to a winch for extracting out of the mire and is a lot quicker to deploy. With both of those devices their may be less of a need for a dead rope.

[Roger]

Anthony

My old rope was a 24mm 3 strand nylon that I used for general purpose tow and snatch recovery. 3 strand or plait, they have the same strength and stretch size for size but the plait is twice the price. It's only advantage is it doesn't kink but if you lay out a 3 strand properly, you dont have a problem there anyway.

I don't mind either in reality but I won't pay through the nose for a product that has been hyped up because it's reckoned to be the best thing since SPAM and sliced bread. Another classic is the swivelling recovery eye, the ability of the KERR negates the necessity of the swivel!

I bought my last rope from a merchant in Birmingham and he spliced the ends to my spec.--nice and tight to fit over a 50mm ball-- and charged me relatively little but he seems to have vanished. Maybe he realised I needed a new rope and he has ducked for cover!

Roger

[M&S]

Durham 4Wheel Drive supplied my nylon rope with a 3/4" shckle for £25 which I thought was ok.

It's towed me out of a few muddy holes and fits nicely over the towbar if needed. Doesn't store very well but as room isn't an issue for us at the moment that's not a problem, if it's really muddy I wrap it around the spare wheel on the back of the truck.

I carry it for general purpose use, on and off road. Handy for helping or been helped

[YotaDave]

I got mine from Euro Ropes UK.

I went for the 28mm 15ton MBL rope with steel eyes just to make sure . £26 with 2 shackles aswell!

[Andy78837]

Anthony, what is a Kerr?

Andy

[Roger]

KERR stands for Kinetic Energy Recovery Rope.
During the Second World War it was standard practice for an armoured unit to have a number of tanks modified to become recovery vehicles so that disabled units could be recovered and moved back to the base units for repair. As the recovery took an amount of time, they became prime targets for the enermy.
Take out the recovery vehicle and you potentially take out a lot of enemy tanks! It's the same as the modern idea of wounding as apposed to killing a soldier, he is out of the battle as well as the two soldiers who get him to safety.
Enter stage left the nylon ( and ONLY nylon please ) rope. Due to it's elasticity--it can stretch 40% and still retain it's strength-- the kinetic energy ( motion of an object X weight =kinetic energy ) of the pulling vehicle is transferred to the stranded vehicle.
The army uses 65mm ropes and each one is only used a max. of 6 times and they are only used to recover armoured vehicles.
In use they can be spectacularlly successful but user's should be aware that they are inherently dangerous and gung-ho use can and will lead to tears.If you have got one and dont know how to use it' then get some training. I am sure there are people out there with tales of doom and gloom who will back me up on this and I hope they will do so.
If you want more info on there use please ask.

Roger

[bertie_bas205]

Is this any use???


http://www.paddockspares.com/scp/OFF_ROAD/Ropes_and_Recovery.html


Bertie.

[Anthony]

Andy, as Roger has stated.

Essentially it is a vehicle sized elastic band. One connects to the stricken vehicle having ensured that all attach points are strong enough and other safety issues are observed. The towing vehicle can then normally just drive gently away the rope stretches, energy is stored and then the stuck vehicle plops out of the mud or what ever. More often or not little effort is required where as with a dead rope one may have needed to attempt many times possibly needing to have given up to try something else. Occasionally a vehicle is stuck very fast and more inertia is required, that is, more aggressive action on behalf of the towing vehicle. It is quite possible for a small vehicle to recover a much larger vehicle with a KERR.

They are very dangerous and require some thought before deploying them. I never allow any one else to attach them other than my self if I am recovering them and always would observe what an other might do should I need the favour. They should only be attached to proper attachment points and not things like bull bars. I have seen a bull bar pulled right off and I have also transported a child to hospital who was inside the danger some when the bull bar snapped off. I did not actually witness the incident but luckily was close enough at hand to assist. If used properly though they will impart less shock loads to the vehicle and will do less harm than snatching with a dead rope.

I also use my KERR with a high lift jack when recovering my alpine tractor. I am not recommending this to any other users but it is a very effective way to use a jack for difficult self recovery. I have used this in a multitude of ways to aid recovery.

One way is to use it to pull the stuck vehicle directly forward by putting the rope under strain and then driving out after the rope has been tensioned in the same direction.

Another way particularity useful when stuck on very steep side slopes is to tension the rope transversely to the vehicle or at an acute angle. This then allows one to continue driving forward but instead of corkscrewing down the hill the increasing tension then pulls one up hill and out of the pickle. Depending on how the rope is attached and at what angle and how far away the other end is attached decides how the vehicle will face as one progresses forward. In my case I often use just the KERR and Strops or one or include two lengths of 100 foot winch cable secured to a tree with a strop. Depending on the total lengths of recovery cable and other equipment when used in the above way will determine the arc that the vehicle will travel in before it eventually faces up the slope or if the fixings where at the back of the vehicle the tractor would end up facing down the slope as one progresses, one then just drives out or reverses out. One could not do this easily with a dead rope as the tension almost always reduces and one looses traction though I have done it.

Another way I have used it when my tractor has been stuck is to walk back up the hill home and collect another vehicle. The plan then is to use a combination of winch ropes and pulleys combined with the other vehicle often as not my Landcruiser. The Landcruiser often or not is a incapable of getting close and b would not like the steep side slope and would not get enough grip. The combined cable, pulley and KERR are attached to what ever end of the tractor I think best and then tensioned by driving the Landcruiser a distance. I then stop it with all difflocks engaged, return to the tractor and drive it in what ever direction I have planned and out it comes. Occasionally I have to reset the whole thing up again or to re adjust the line of pull to eventually get to where I want.

Their are risks when used in the above ways, particularly when tensioning the KERR with the Jack because one is directly in the line of fire and might end up with a high lift in ones face and one is often dealing with tensioned equipment instead of being shielded inside the vehicle for the whole of the operation.

I use the above methods because I have no winch on any vehicle the land is very steep in places and I am always working alone. I live on a farm which is some distance away from any one else and I would not ask a neighbour here for a cold never mind any real help. So necessity makes one creative, perhaps more of a controlled risk taker also. Of course If I made a mistake I would be lying in my own blood for a very long time, until my wife came home from work to notice me missing. I minimise ricks as far as I can and achieving difficult things with the minimum of equipment can be rewarding. Some times when stuck in a difficult and precarious position in my tractor, I walk home have a cup of tea and plan out how I will tackle the problem. Then once I have collected what ever is necessary I have a very clear picture in my mind how I will set up and how things will turn out knowing in advance where the tractor might slip or go to as I proceed at each stage.

I have had my KERR for a number of years and keep it clean, washing it in the washing machine if necessary. I always instruct others what I am doing if I am using it for others and tell them what I expect of them. I always instruct them not to drive on the rope once I have pulled them forward. One has to be very clear about that because it is amazing how many say yes yes and then do exactly that once pulled clear.

[Andy78837]

Roger and Anthony, thanks to both of you. I know what it is now. The kinetic energy part is left off in advertisements here. I have a recovery strap I have used several times which works on th same principle. I scares me half way to death to use.

I have the hi-lft jack too. With the kinetic equipment besides usage here one needs to be mindful of the effects of uv rays on the ropes/straps.

Anthony, be careful when you are out. I face the same issues when I am out on the ranches. I'm thankful that I have one of the girls who knows all the ranches so I tell her which one I will be on. As far as the others I may as well have gone to the dark side of the moon.

Aye, I've been sideways on a slope on my tractor too. Not a pleasant expericence.

Again, thanks to both of you.

Andy

[Roger]

Hi Andy
Yes the Aussies use what they call Snatch-um-Straps but again there is no mention of how they work. I was interested in one because they can be rolled up into a neat package but on further investigation I found that they only stretch about 20% which is half that of a nylon rope.
My investigation's have so far found that Paddocks do a KERR for £32 + vat and that is the best price so far. Others have been up around the £50 + vat mark.
Anthony
I have a small--15cwt--hand winch and in combination with an 18mm nylon rope I could always get myself out of trouble when I used to lane on my own in a Suzuki Sj 413. The principal is still the same as it uses the rope to store energy.
It's a bit like some women, simple but deadly if mistreated! ( do you think I will get into trouble for that one? )

Roger

[Anthony]

It think that you could rig up some sort of safety retainer strap on the each end of the KERR if your very concerned, then if a fixing comes off the retainer should catch it. However as long as all of the fixing points are secured by high tensile bolts all should be OK.

Traversing across steep slopes is very common for me on a tractor. It does not concern me much as mine is designed for it, I would not feel so confident on a more normal machine. It has a low C of G and wide tyres, its slides rather than tip up. Wide tyres are very good but they do have less ultimate grip than narrow ones. I could do with 2 different types really wide and thin. On very steep slope I need to constantly correct or steer up hill otherwise one travels diagonally down the slope instead of across it. The worst surfaces are bracken coved slopes particularly after a lot of rain in the winter though in the summer the green bracken can be quite slippery on its own without rain. The top surface may look dry but in fact it never dries under the surface. The bit where one knows that your stuck is when going over an unseen bump like a tree root or animal scrape. The tractor is at an extreme angle and any motion sends one even further down rapidly. The secret is to stop and switch off immediately and start a recovery procedure, it is always a mistake to try and get out with movement things just get worse. I never fear on the tractor it always feel so stable it's just that one ends further and further down the hill and one might end up trapped against a tree or eventually go over an edge. Once the wheels get ought up with a tree lodged between them things start getting even more difficult to extract as one is well lodged then. Hence the cup of tea, one has then time to consider all of the scenarios and achieve a successful extraction without further complications. I have always managed so far completely on my own without any help but a winch in some situations sure might take some of the sweat out of it.
Thank you for the concern but equaly I for you as the distances are so much greater in your case, some one would soon find me by the smell of rotting flesh or follow the circling buzzards.

[Anthony]

Oh dear Roger I think that you may be punished severely for that comment

"It's a bit like some women, simple but deadly if mistreated! ( do you think I will get into trouble for that one? )"



I had a turfa somewhere about 10 years ago but it got damaged and while I was fixing it some of the internal parts got lost so now it in a shed hiding with bits missing.

It was handy for pulling out small tree stumps and would have been easier to haul than with the high lift.

[Roger]

Thanks to Bertie's info. I have placed an Order with Paddocks for an 8 m X 24mm KERR at £32 +vat. Nobody else came close at that price!

Cheers Bertie

Roger

[bertie_bas205]

No probs dude...


Bertie.

[Roger]

Ordered the rope from Paddocks last Friday. Turned up today at 14.30. Nice piece of kit, wear sleeves neatly welded and spliced ends welded and wrapped.
Well done Paddocks!

Roger

[bertie_bas205]

I maybe should have got one of them myself rather than paying nearly £100 for an ARB, although the ARB kinetic strap is the doogs danglies.....



Bertie.

[Roger]

Taubenreuther Quoted me £44.99 for an ARB " Snatch um Strap " ( so basic the Aussie's ) . Didn't get one because they only stretch 20% as agains't the KERR at 40%. They also cost more.

Roger

[Anthony]

Roger.

Are all the KERR ropes that are commonly available other than some specialist marine ropes, manufactured to the same specification but at different £ Prices?

[Roger]

Anthony

I have a GaelForce Marine catalogue and it lists 24mm Marlow anchor warp at £ 5.95 per metre. They claim it is easy to splice. This price is per metre and I would expect a substantial discount if you bought it in coils of 220 metres. There is a mention of BSEN 696 and whether this is a relevant standard I dont know but I do not think Paddocks would jeopardise their good name by selling a duff high safety factor item.
At least I hope not!

[Anthony]

Sorry Roger,

I am not intimating any lack of quality of Paddocks product, I am just wondering if most of the outlets get them ready made up and just sell them on. I know that marine chandeliers sell it made up or as drum and that some one posted a catalogue of ropes with different diameters.

I have had one for a very long time, though mine is well used and perhaps should be renewed. It has seen use on many a vehicle including UNIMOG. I suppose that the nominal 24mm has been made up for normal 4x4s, perhaps a larger diameter might be more appropriate for a heavier vehicle, though mostly it has been used by a heavier vehicle to pull normal sized 4x4s

[Roger]

Anthony

No problem,never took it that way. On my old Suzuki I carried an 18mm 3 strand nylon rope and that gave sterling performance for many years. I upgraded to a 24mm 3 strand when we got the Land-Cruiser as I thought that would be more appropriate and that too gave many years of faithfull service---until I put it through the washing machine and it had a moment and came out partly unravelled! An examination of the remains indicated that there was a degree of wear and retirement would be the best option, hence the seach for a replacement.
The KERR's used by the army are 65mm dia. and they can extract a 60 ton main battle tank---that must be a sight worth seeing---so I wouldn't have thought you need to increase the dia. by a lot to move a Uni-Mog. Maybe some one else can offer some advice on this aspect.

Cheers

Roger

[Anthony]

65mm would take some stretching . I was just wondering if the rope should be chosen appropriately to the vehicle weight, that is ones own vehicle or be choesen for the towed vehicles weight. When I had the UNIMOG it would easily stretch the 24mm KERR, I used it for other purposes as well. Perhaps 24mm is suitable for a wide range of vehicles from a Suzuki to a Landcruiser 80 or a UNIMOG even but that is a big range of weights.

[mmgemini]

1 I wouldn't use a rope made of nylon for any recovery use.
2 I have yet to see a rope. Nylon, manila or hemp with a lable fitted to it that gives the SWL.
3 I have yet to see a tested rope.

Could somebody now please explain to me why a rope, Nylon or natural fibre WITHOUT a certificate is better then a strap that has a test lable fitted.

[Anthony]

I think that it a question of stretch the KERR ropes have more stretch than the straps. The SWL is a documented Safe Working Lode it is a reliable figure but that does not give it more stretch just a legal documented working limit. The ability of a rope to stretch and recover is its ability to store Kenetic energy. The ropes do this better than the straps, that is all. No doubt if one were to go to the manufacturer a figure may or may not be given for the rope.

In my view the straps might be better for towing because the allow stretch which prevents shock loading but are not as capable for recovery as KERR patted rope for recovery. If your i lifting or a work place the SWL may be a legal requirement

[Roger]

Hi Mike
As you don't use a rope --any rope--for recovery, am I to assume that you use some form of flat belt sling?If so then there are a few points you need to understand.

The whole point about using a nylon rope---3 strand or multiplait, size for size they have the same strength---is that they will stretch up to 40% and still recover. By slowing down the pulling motor, without having to use it's brakes, the kinetic energy---mass x velocity---is transferred into the rope and thence into the stuck vehicle, hopefully pulling it free.The nylon rope acts as a giant elastic band and it's this need to be elastic that precludes the use of all other ropes.

Flat belt slings do not stretch to any extent. They are not designed to. Their primary function is in the lifting, moving and tying of goods in stores ,factories , building yards etc. In these applications a sling will be rated to lift a certain amount but this rating will be subject to a factor of safety of 7:1. In other words if it is rated to 1 ton it will break at 7 tons. Any test certificate you obtain will be based on a number of units being tested to destruction to ascertain the likely breaking point of the whole batch. The test certificate will only give the working load ie. in this case 1 ton. You must also realise that this figure of 1 ton will change if the sling is used at an angle ( from the vertical ).

The KERR from Paddocks is rated at 12 ton breaking load and a SWL of 2 tons, a ratio of 6:1. If you wish to ascertain a manufactures figure I suggest you Google " Marlow Ropes " and email them direct.
A noteworthy point is that a splice in any rope will reduce it's working load by, in this case approx 5%.

The Aussie's have developed a nylon strap which goes by the " In your Face " title of " snatch um Strap ". It's elasticity is half--20%--of a nylon rope, and in use it must be treated with considerable care as overzealous use could well exceed it's rated limit.

In use a KERR should be treated with considerable care and caution as any gung ho attitude by a stupid and basically brain dead person will and has turned to tears and recriminations. PEOPLE HAVE DIED because some maggot wants to cut a dash and show of. I have seen Jate rings ripped of the front of a Range-Rover and the crossmember destroyed on a series L.R.

There is never a need to use a full blooded snatch recovery at the first attempt. A max speed of 5 mph starting with the rope nearly extended is a good start and probably all that is needed.

As the driver you are responsible for your actions and no amount of buck passing will change that. My philosophy on the subject is simple, I do noy want to stand in a coroner's court and have to explain why a person died.

I hope this somewhat long winded epistle will convince you that although you wont get a test certificate with any rope, the manufacturers will be working to a standard--possibly BS 3481--and as such a nylon rope is a safer bet than any strap.

Roger