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Rooley Moor Road = bridleway

 
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Difflock Forum Index -> Green Lanes and Rights of Way
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uk_vette
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Joined: 15 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:44 pm    Post subject: Rooley Moor Road = bridleway Reply with quote

hello all,

I spoke to the Rights of Way officer at Rochdale Borough council today.
A chap called David Brennan. 01706 647474

I asked him to confirm the status of RMR, as I had always understood, that it was classed as other road" ie, Ancient highway.

http://www.dingquarry.co.uk/location--geography...al-importance.asp

It looks like it is not classed as ancient highway, but as a bridleway.

Rochdale BC juristriction runs up the sets from Rochdale end to the overhead high voltage pylons.

From there it is the responsibility of Calderdale BC.

The RoW officer there is Mark Reynolds 01706 924979, or 01422 357257
I have not spoken to him yet regarding the Bacup end and Stacksteads end of RMR.

David was telling me that there are signs erected at the Rochdale end of RMR, and passing these signs with a motorized vehicle, is forbidden, and this is classed as your first "warning"

A second warning, ie: being stopped by a police man, could end you up on the wrong side of a S59.

David did say, that every case is treated differently by the police on the ground, and in the area. , I felt what he was saying was, (rightly or wrongly), that if you were simply taking a slow drive, and sticking to the recognized trail, then if you happened to be stopped by a policeman, then a bit of civility, might just see you past an unpleasant encounter, and you may well be allowed on your way.
On the other hand, if you are ripping up some grassland, adjacent to the track, then BiB might not take to kindly, and all the groveling might still be no good.

All said and done, I think if just 1 or 2 vehicles went up by themselves, and as "invisible" as possible, attracting no attention, then you might be OK.

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Anthony
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its either legal to drive or it is not. if it is legal then there is no need for stealth. If it not legal then it should not be driven. If its status is not known then it should not be driven.
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Rossko
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a glance at Streetmap or Wayfinder shows bridleway both sides of the civil boundary, to save a phone call.

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=385500&Y=418500&A=Y&Z=3

also

http://www.wayfinderproject.co.uk/html/gmaps/wf_gmap.htm?uid=SD8421-7a

Before NERC it may well have been recorded as a bridleway but still with vehicle rights established ; but NERC will have swept those away.

cheers, Ross K.

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Greebo101
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't even attempt it. The locals are noting number plates of vehicles using Rooley Moor Road.
They have been taking numbers for quite a few years, as the lane has been used by people to access private land & quarries for illegally playing/driving/riding in.
Even before NERC, there was some doubt about the legality of driving RMR.
HTH
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Jason2985
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a s59 caution(warning) last year for going in the quarry.
Took my punishment, although there were no signs.
The quarry is classed as open moorland even tho it is private property.
Thought i was going to be charged with tresspass.
So gotta keep my nose clean for another 6 months yet.
Although as i was speaking to the Police officer he did say that RMR was open to all traffic and as long as we kept on the road there would be no problem.
Didnt the owner of the quarry successfully get the status of the road changed as he wanted to start using the quarry again.
I read in the Rochdale Observer of this a couple of years ago.

Like i say i was in the wrong for not checking the status of the quarry and took my punishment like a little boy and cried all the way home screaming for my mummy. Laughing


Jay
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Jason2985
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERE.

www.rochdaleobserver.co.uk/news/s/334/334010...quarry_fears.html




Jay
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LlaniGraham
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I would be taking a copy of that article to the Rights of Way Office and checking with them.
Have you checked the Definitive map?

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Number 6
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jason2985 wrote:

So gotta keep my nose clean for another 6 months yet.
Although as i was speaking to the Police officer he did say that RMR was open to all traffic and as long as we kept on the road there would be no problem.


I don't think it's a matter of "keeping your nose clean for another 6 months" but forever!

Anywhere that isn't specifically a road with vehicular rights is automatically private land, it doesn't matter if it's "open moorland", or "common land" or whatever else, it's private and unless you have the explicit permission of the landowner then driving on said private land is unlawful, no argument. If you want to drive quarry type environments then go to a pay and play or a trial.

As to RMR itself then the article you refer to is pre-NERCA; the rules are different now. Any "road" that also has a footpath or bridleway running along it and was recorded on the DM & S as a footpath or bridleway has no vehicular rights post-NERCA. The only exceptions are 1) if you can prove that in the five years to NERCA that use of the road was prodominently by motor vehicle and the onus is on you to prove that beyond reasonable doubt, or 2) if it was not on the DM & S but was on the List of Streets as a road maintainable at public expense.

Worth checking with Rights of Way and Highways Dept.

But keep off private land!

Pete
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Jason2985
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Number 6 wrote:
Jason2985 wrote:

So gotta keep my nose clean for another 6 months yet.
Although as i was speaking to the Police officer he did say that RMR was open to all traffic and as long as we kept on the road there would be no problem.


I don't think it's a matter of "keeping your nose clean for another 6 months" but forever!

Anywhere that isn't specifically a road with vehicular rights is automatically private land, it doesn't matter if it's "open moorland", or "common land" or whatever else, it's private and unless you have the explicit permission of the landowner then driving on said private land is unlawful, no argument. If you want to drive quarry type environments then go to a pay and play or a trial.

As to RMR itself then the article you refer to is pre-NERCA; the rules are different now. Any "road" that also has a footpath or bridleway running along it and was recorded on the DM & S as a footpath or bridleway has no vehicular rights post-NERCA. The only exceptions are 1) if you can prove that in the five years to NERCA that use of the road was prodominently by motor vehicle and the onus is on you to prove that beyond reasonable doubt, or 2) if it was not on the DM & S but was on the List of Streets as a road maintainable at public expense.

Worth checking with Rights of Way and Highways Dept.

But keep off private land!

Pete


I now know all this.

And in my reference to keeping my nose clean i mean if i step out of line again i could have my vehicle taken off me.
Not that i thought i was stepping out of line at the time as there must have been about 10 other vehicles there.
The Police didnt stop some youths on trails bikes WHO WERE on open moor land and tearing it up.
We were an easy target.

And i dont need patronising Pete.
I have explained that i was in the wrong and have taken my punishment.
And i have no intention of knowingly commiting an offfence of such like again.
I was trying to contribute to an open forum not be talked down to like a little child.
Shame on you

Anyway, ya live and learn and from my point of view the matter is now closed.


Lets hear some more on RMR.

Jay
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Number 6
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I'm sorry if you found it patronising but your post did read as though you'd wait 6 months before doing something similar again.

Sorry.

Yes, 4x4's are an easier target for plod, they also cause more angst among the anti's and driving illegally on private land or off-piste while laning is a big contributor to the anti-feelings against us.

It's important to ram home the message that driving off-piste is not acceptable under any circumstances. There is nowhere that's legal to drive without permission except for proven vehicular rights of way; that includes moorland, open mountainsides, quarries, disused or otherwise, common land, etc, etc, etc. It's not so hard to understand.

As for RMR I don't see that there's much more to hear; speak to Highways and to Rights of Way, check the DM, DS and LoS and then apply the logic according to NERC. OTOH if it looks as though NERCA has killed it but you're prepared to prove your rights under the 5 year exception if challenged / arrested then drive it; we could do with a test case.

The relevant bits of NERCA are here:

Quote:
67 Ending of certain existing unrecorded public rights of way
(1) An existing public right of way for mechanically propelled vehicles is
extinguished if it is over a way which, immediately before commencement—
(a) was not shown in a definitive map and statement, or
(b) was shown in a definitive map and statement only as a footpath,
bridleway or restricted byway.
But this is subject to subsections (2) to ( 8 ).
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to an existing public right of way if—
(a) it is over a way whose main lawful use by the public during the period
of 5 years ending with commencement was use for mechanically
propelled vehicles,
(b) immediately before commencement it was not shown in a definitive
map and statement but was shown in a list required to be kept under
section 36(6) of the Highways Act 1980 (c. 66) (list of highways
maintainable at public expense),
(c) it was created (by an enactment or instrument or otherwise) on terms
that expressly provide for it to be a right of way for mechanically
propelled vehicles,
(d) it was created by the construction, in exercise of powers conferred by
virtue of any enactment, of a road intended to be used by such vehicles, or
(e) it was created by virtue of use by such vehicles during a period ending
before 1st December 1930.


Pete
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Jason2985
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pete.

I`m not one to hold grudges.

Thanks for the advice.
I`m currently looking at setting up a greenlane business.
Basically taking people out on guided tours of legally drivable ROW.
Mainly around Wales and only on a part time basis and following GLASS`s guide lines.
5 vehicles etc, i will join GLASS as well.
Not like a certain business who reguarly takes out 15 vehicles plus.
Maybe some of you know them.
Anyway, off thread topic sorry.

But any advice anyone could offer would be gratefully received.

Jay
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Drift
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jay, I think its commendable that as a commercial operator you are going down the tread lightly and visually look less intimidating route, unlike some groups.

And also the fact you are willing to join one of the groups that can put resources back into the lanes we use.
Educating your clients and making them aware of the issues surrounding green lanes would be a great step in protecting the lanes we have left.

I also commend you for having the balls to mention that you have been subject to a section 59 notice, and took it on the chin.

Its easy to make a mistake none of us are perfect, but its frustrating at being the easy target, thats politics as well.

I have spoken out before about commercial operators and their practises and lack of support for a network that is their business, from what your proposing and if it pans out you could and I sincerely hope you prove me wrong.

Jay just check the flippin routes Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Jason2985
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy
Thanks Ste.

I can but try.


I will of course be collecting phone numbers of all the relevent councils and their ROW officer`s.
I have a few ideas to promote the sensible use of ROW`s, and dont mind helping to maintain those routes.

Basically i learned from my mistake with the s59, and plan to take advantage of that and promote sensible use of ROW`s.
Thanks for the comments.

Jay
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uk_vette
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Joined: 15 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jay,

I used to live in Bacup, and have driven RMR many times.
I think the first time I was up there was about 1989.

I have probably been up and down RMR a couple of times a year up until 1995.

Also refer to my post, the thread stater, and I was up there in my not long ago with my son in his 'yota, and me in my Navara, and the Police simply asked us where we were going, and how long we would be.
I told him we were just passing through, and would be exiting down Rake Head Lane, and not comming back through Rochy.
Graham

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218 meters - 750 feet, yes, it is high!
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WUZZY
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi all got stopped up there last weekend and got a warning or some sort of stupid asbo Mad but my grumble is the officers were up there allready ie commiting an offence themselves and the only sign visable is in the bus turning circle 200yrds off the main route Shocked but it would be nice to be able to drive up there legally so if anyones got a petition going im in Wink
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Rossko
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Petition about what, making it legal to drive on bridleways??
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WUZZY
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no a petition for making it legal to access a otherwise dissused bit of land that happends to be perfect for off road fun,its only a bridleway if it is classed as such Exclamation but i susspect that the usual do gooders will ruin this one as there is no money to be made in opening such a fantastic bit of scenery to the broader public heh Exclamation
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WUZZY wrote:
no a petition for making it legal to access a otherwise dissused bit of land that happends to be perfect for off road fun,




Did you read what number6 said above???

Quote:
Anywhere that isn't specifically a road with vehicular rights is automatically private land, it doesn't matter if it's "open moorland", or "common land" or whatever else, it's private and unless you have the explicit permission of the landowner then driving on said private land is unlawful, no argument. If you want to drive quarry type environments then go to a pay and play or a trial



and you wonder why there are so many anti's wanting to stop us from doing what we do? Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this particular route does have vehicle rights Exclamation as aproved by local council.
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Greebo101
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WUZZY wrote:
this particular route does have vehicle rights Exclamation as aproved by local council.

Any vehicle rights that this route may have had will have been extinguised by the NERC Act.
The NERC Act extinguished vehicle rights on any route shown on the definitive map as Bridleway, Footpath or RUPP. There will be a few exceptions, but Rooley Moor Road is not one of the exceptions. I know, I've looked into it.
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Jason2985
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been told that this lane has been classed as an Ancient Highway and as such NERC doesnt apply.
Can anybody shed anymore light on this?

Jay
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Terranosaurus
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No such exemption from NERC act - only thing close is if you can prove it was used a a Motor Propelled Vehicle prior to 1930 - good luck, let us know how you get on.
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Jason2985
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="sptb"]No such exemption from NERC act - only thing close is if you can prove it was used a a Motor Propelled Vehicle prior to 1930 - good luck, let us know how you get on.[/quote

Thanks for the reply.

Mmmmmmmm, interesting tho as DP Williams (the owners of Ding Quarry) are in court again sometime in August because they want to extract 750,000 tonnes of rock a year over the next 30 years and Rochdale Council are trying to impose restrictions.


Jay
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Rossko
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jason2985 wrote:
Mmmmmmmm, interesting tho as DP Williams (the owners of Ding Quarry) are in court again sometime in August because they want to extract 750,000 tonnes of rock a year over the next 30 years and Rochdale Council are trying to impose restrictions.


Arr, but for them it's different. The CLBA lawyers who wrote the relevant bits of NERC took pains to make sure landowners who could afford barristers weren't inconvenienced.

If it can be shown that public vehicle rights existed BEFORE Nerc, they still get destroyed as far as the general public is concerned, but are converted to PRIVATE rights for adjacent landwoners.

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Jason2985
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rossko wrote:
Jason2985 wrote:
Mmmmmmmm, interesting tho as DP Williams (the owners of Ding Quarry) are in court again sometime in August because they want to extract 750,000 tonnes of rock a year over the next 30 years and Rochdale Council are trying to impose restrictions.


Arr, but for them it's different. The CLBA lawyers who wrote the relevant bits of NERC took pains to make sure landowners who could afford barristers weren't inconvenienced.

If it can be shown that public vehicle rights existed BEFORE Nerc, they still get destroyed as far as the general public is concerned, but are converted to PRIVATE rights for adjacent landwoners.


Thanks for the info Rossko. Very Happy

I didnt know that. Confused

But i may have proof that this road had MPV use before 1930.
There used to be a pub up there until it was demolished around the mid 1970`s, ok this may not prove that MPV were using the road before 1930 but i`m sure a bit more research may prove fruitful or otherwise. Very Happy


Jay
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andrewk
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jason2985 wrote:
But i may have proof that this road had MPV use before 1930. There used to be a pub up there until it was demolished around the mid 1970`s, ok this may not prove that MPV were using the road before 1930 but i`m sure a bit more research may prove fruitful or otherwise. Very Happy


Yes there was a pub up there. A friend who was researching Rooley Moor pre-NERC showed me where he thought it had been. IIRC we also found a mention of it on an old map.

The problem with this approach is that even if more evidence could be found that a pub existed, that wouldn't establish that motor vehicles had driven to it pre-1930. Even if that could be established, it's unlikely that vehicular access to the pub pre-1930 could be proven from both the Bacup and Rochdale ends so as to re-establish a through route.

I don't think you'll find it easy ........

Cheers
Andrew
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g1oves
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn`t be surprised if a lot of lanes were used by vehicles before the 1930`s because the military had rights of way to use most of the more-land around the country for training exercises and claimed a lot of land for army camps. might be worth looking into !
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LlaniGraham
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt that military use would count. It is public usage that is required.
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