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Biodiesel on Merseyside?

 
 
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jonathanm
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:47 pm    Post subject: Biodiesel on Merseyside? Reply with quote

Can anyone tell me if there is a supplier of biodiesel on Merseyside (or north cheshire, south lancs) who will sell (forecourt style) direct to the public?

I used to use a place on Edge Lane, but they have not had any in for over a year now, and did try a supplier in Kirkby early last year, however the vehicle ran extremely poorly, no power, cutting out, and fuel consumption in the teens, from nearly 30mpg on dino-diesel!

Searching the web yields ALchemeny biodiesel, but when I went to the address supplied it didn't look open, and e-mails I've sent to them have gone unanswered.

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spannerman69
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

northwest gases in st.helens 0147722294
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jonathanm
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spannerman69 wrote:
northwest gases in st.helens 0147722294


Many thanks, should the tel number be 01744 22294? Have you used their biodiesel or do you know someone who has?

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spannerman69
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonathanm wrote:
spannerman69 wrote:
northwest gases in st.helens 0147722294


Many thanks, should the tel number be 01744 22294? Have you used their biodiesel or do you know someone who has?


i know the guy who sells it ,he runs all his company vehicles on it if that helps , give him a call in the morning and ask for martin. the number is correct

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jonathanm
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a quick update, called in yesterday & spoke to Martin's dad, they won't sell direct to public at the moment until more consistent warm weather happens, this is due to cold weather running problems that they encounter which means they use a 50:50 mix in their own vehicles until about march.

I'll be back to see them then.

BTW there was a little suzuki outside with your website link on, I assume that was Martins?

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Biodiesel-Bev
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Johnathan,

Try these websites, they may list one near to you. Wink

http://www.petrolprices.com/biodiesel-companies.html

http://www.thebiodieselcook.com/

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Greenworld Biodiesel Ltd, Huddersfield.

www.greenworldbiodiesel.co.uk - enqs@greenworldbiodiesel.co.uk

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Ferino
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Johnathanm

Newbie here.
I will be in Liverpool this summer and would like to switch to bio.
I am currently using 50/50 dino/svo in my Pajero with no problems.
I will be staying near Kirkby. There are now 2 suppliers on the Kirkby Industrial Estate, so which one did you try, Biofuels or Refuel?
Will stay clear of the one you used! Refuel are charging 96p/lt so wouldn't go there at that price.
My main reasons for switching will be convenience (gets a bit tedious going to Tescos, loading the trolley with Pura at 56p/lt and then pouring 1lt bottles into tank, going to petrol station to top up with dino) and cost.
Currently works out 107+56/2=81.5p/lt.
I've seen good quality Bio advertised for 51p+5%VAT=53.5p/lt in the South.
You buy it as heating oil so VAT is only 5% and no road tax.
You can then legally 'change your mind' and use it as part of your 2500lt allowance. Just keep records to show you've used less than 2500lt per annum. Legal loophole!!

Let me know how you get on in St Helens. Not too far to travel if it's good quality and price.

Regards
Ferino
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Biodiesel-Bev
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ferino wrote:
Hi Johnathanm

I've seen good quality Bio advertised for 51p+5%VAT=53.5p/lt in the South.
You buy it as heating oil so VAT is only 5% and no road tax.
You can then legally 'change your mind' and use it as part of your 2500lt allowance. Just keep records to show you've used less than 2500lt per annum. Legal loophole!!

Ferino


Who ever has told you that you can buy biodiesel as heating oil and then 'change your mind' and use it as vehicle fuel is completely wrong. There is no legal loophole

Firstly, if you buy it as heating oil and then use it in your vehicle you must pay road fuel duty on it = 30.35p per litre (road fuel duty) and full VAT = 17.5%.

Secondly you are only entitled to the 2,500 litre allowance if you a) make the biodiesel yourself or b) buy and use SVO. You do need to keep records, receipts to prove to HMRC that you have made it yourself or bought SVO. Buying it from a biodiesel producer does NOT entitle you to the 2,500 litre duty free allowance.

The HMRC are cracking down on biodiesel producers who sell it as heating oil. When they do come knocking on their door they will end up paying back duty on ANY heating oil HMRC suspect was used as road fuel. Then HMRC will go knocking on the doors of people who bought it as 'heating oil'. You run the risk of having your vehicle confiscated and having to pay HMRC any money they think you owe them. Shocked

__________________________________
Greenworld Biodiesel Ltd, Huddersfield.

www.greenworldbiodiesel.co.uk - enqs@greenworldbiodiesel.co.uk

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spannerman69
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonathanm wrote:
Just a quick update, called in yesterday & spoke to Martin's dad, they won't sell direct to public at the moment until more consistent warm weather happens, this is due to cold weather running problems that they encounter which means they use a 50:50 mix in their own vehicles until about march.

I'll be back to see them then.

BTW there was a little suzuki outside with your website link on, I assume that was Martins?


your right that would be martins truck

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Ferino
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

biodiesel-queen

I got this information from a well-respected and informed member from another forum who works with Customs & Excise and is doing this himself.
I did, however, forget a VERY important part.
Once the biodiesel heating oil is delivered and you 'change your mind' you have to pay another 12.5% VAT.
This is 17.5% minus the 5% you have already payed on it as heating oil.

I haven't switched to biodiesel yet and I don't know if he is correct but as I said he works with C&E, won't do anything illegal as he doesn't want to lose his truck and this is what he is doing.

In the past he has warned members about the illegality of using kerosene and oil, cherry diesel, white spirit etc.

I suppose the only way to be sure would be to contact C&E and ask them!

Regards
Ferino
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Biodiesel-Bev
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Email sent to me from Tony Baxter (One of the main authorities on Road fuel duty, tax etc for biodiesel) at HMRC, in September 2007.

....."I think HMRC would dispute someone’s claim to be selling heating fuel if we felt that the intention of the retailer was to sell road fuel, or at least something which could just as easily be used as road fuel, or is more likely to be used as road fuel than heating fuel. Otherwise we effectively permit misdescription as a means of avoiding tax – something we punish, for instance, where clothes retailers claim they are selling children’s clothes when they are not. We would advise retailers to be very careful about doing this."....

....."This brings me to my colleague’s email which you received a few days ago while I was off work. The scenarios I would have liked to advise on are perhaps too many and advice as I said can sometimes (though not deliberately) be misunderstood. Therefore, my colleague has provided simpler advice for retailers in deciding how to account for sales of biofuel which could be used for heating or for motoring, where the retailer cannot know the end use for sure. The purchaser might even buy it intending it to be used for one, and then might use it for the other. This places an almost impossible duty of care on the retailer to account for duty when appropriate (depending on the end use). The threads indicate, and common sense dictates, that there will be a very high percentage of end users using such a product as motoring fuel; that is undoubtedly what the members of this thread intend to use it for, and this is known to the retailers. Therefore the retailers would struggle to argue that this product is genuinely set out for use as heating fuel, and calling it heating fuel would therefore seem to be a strategy for not charging duty on the fuel.



Yes, the retailers could argue that duty will be accounted for where appropriate, by the purchasers individually if they go over the 2500 litre limit, but this misses the point that, as retailers, they are producers if they have set out – in their own minds – to produce motoring fuel no matter what they might call it for tax purposes. Remember, when a member of the public buys vegetable oil from a supermarket, if they buy it intending to use it as road fuel, they are a producer at the moment of purchase, not when they actually use it. This same principle applies to retailers. If the product is fit for use as road fuel in the retailer’s mind, then assuming they are retailing over 2500 litres per year, the retailer should immediately register and account for duty on all of it. Then – especially as the true usage as heating oil by individual members of the public is a small percentage, which these threads confirm – it would be more appropriate and safer in terms of making sure the duty is accounted for as it should be, to use the mechanism as already published in the existing version of Notice 179E, whereby the retailer charges duty on this fuel, and the end user reclaims that duty when and if they use it, or some of it, for off-road use. See paragraph 5.4 of the current version (October 2005) which is about to be reissued – watch out for the new version."......




I have got another one somewhere stating that you are only entitled to the 2,500 litre allowance if you a) make the biodiesel yourself And make less than 2,500 litres per year, or b) you buy and use SVO (which under the HMRC makes them a 'producer') and you use less than the 2,500 litres a year.

Just to clarify, buying biodiesel does not make you a 'producer' and therefore does not entitle you to the 2,500 litre allowance.

I don't wish to be disrespectful to your friend who works for HMRC (formally known as Customs and Excise), but what he has advised you is incorrect. He may be well meaning and not intentionally mis-advising you but, I know I am correct as I have had lengthy telephone calls and emails with Tony Baxter at HMRC, who as I say is one of the leading authorities at HMRC regarding biodiesel tax etc. And the reason I spoke to Mr Baxter, is because we had been incorrectly advised by one of their 'advisers' at the HMRC helpline!

If you want to see the full versions of the emails I can post them on here, but be warned they are long and convoluted, and much of it relates to specifics for biodiesel producers.

Bev

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Greenworld Biodiesel Ltd, Huddersfield.

www.greenworldbiodiesel.co.uk - enqs@greenworldbiodiesel.co.uk

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Ferino
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

biodiesel-queen

Thanks for posting the email from HMRC.
As usual, they seem to be putting all the responsibilty and accountability on the supplier and unpaid tax collector!
(I was an unpaid VAT collector for many years!)
If a customer tells you he wants to use your biodiesel for his home heating and asks you to deliver 1,000 litres are you expected to call him a liar and charge him road fund duty! If his home has gas central heating then he obviously never intended to use it as home heating fuel but is that really for you to decide? If he turns up at your place of business and purchases eg 25 litres in a container and tells you it is for home heating then I think it would be reasonable for you to question its use, charge road fund duty and advise him he can reclaim the duty from HMRC.
What if he wants to buy 25 litres in a container for off road use? Some suppliers will believe you and charge the reduced duty others will charge the full duty and tell you to claim a refund. He may well be intending to use it off road. Again, is it your responsibility to doubt him or believe him? One supplier in London will supply and tax for the purpose you say it is for but you have to sign a declaration of intended use so that he is in the clear.
The only way you are 100% sure it is for road use is if you pump it into his car!
It really is a can of worms.
I think I'll stick to SVO!
If I increase the blend to 25/75 dino/svo in the summer my legal fuel cost comes down to 68.75p per litre. Cheaper than biodiesel with the duty.

If my colleague from the other forum is correct, would HMRC really tell us?
Of course, you would have to be able to use it as heating oil for the intent to be true! People do and can change their minds. I think the loophole maybe that when you 'change your mind' and decide to use it as road fuel you become a small producer, entitled to use 2500 litres without duty.
If you buy svo to fry chips it's not part of your 2500 allowance. It only becomes part of your allowance if you change your mind and pour it into your tank!

I agree if HMRC came calling you would have to be very convincing as the onus of proof is on you, not them!!

Hours of discussion and debate in this one.

Regards
Ferino
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Biodiesel-Bev
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ferino,

As you say, as far as the HMRC are concerned, the main onus is on the biodiesel producers to ensure that HMRC get the road fuel duty. To avoid any risk of being accused of selling biodiesel as heating oil with an intention of defrauding HMRC we decided that we would not sell it, with the reduced duty, as heating oil. I do have to question the reliability of someone wanting to buy biodiesel as heating oil, even with the removal of the road fuel duty (30.35ppl) and reduced vat, it is still more expensive than normal heating oil.

If someone is genuinely buying it as heating oil, then they do have the right to claim the duty back from HMRC.

I believe HMRC are updating the regulations and rules on biodiesel in relation to road fuel duty, SVO and heating oil, it will be interesting to see what they come up with next! Rolling Eyes

I should imagine that it will benefit HMRC more than the producers, home brewers or biodiesel users!

Out of interest, which forum was it that you were initially given the 'advice'?

If you buy SVO from a supermarket to use as road fuel, then you become a 'producer', and are entitled to the 2,500 litre allowance.
If you buy biodiesel as either road fuel you are not entitled to the allowance.
If you buy biodiesel as heating oil then change your mind and use it as road fuel, you do not become a producer and you aren't entitled to the allowance.

Even biodiesel producers of over 2,500 litres a year aren't entitled to have the first 2,500 litres road fuel duty free! This was how my initial correspondence with Tony Baxter of HMRC came about. We telephoned HMRC's helpline to clarify if, we, as large scale biodiesel producers were entitled to the first 2,500 litres duty free, which would be used in our own personal vehicles. We were told that we were entitled to it. When I discussed this on another forum, HMRC phoned me to asked who and where I had been given this advice. (It's surprising how many forums they read). They were rather embarrassed when I told them it was their own helpline! So on the back of this I corresponded with Mr Baxter to clear up and clarify numerous points regarding tax and RFD raised by myself and other members of a biodiesel/svo forum.

So with mis-information being given by them it's hardly surprising that so many ordinary members of the public don't know what they should and shouldn't be doing.

There were/are several biodiesel producers advertising biodiesel on ebay as heating oil, telling potential customers that they could buy it as heating oil then use it in their vehicles. They were also telling customers that they could buy it duty free as part of the customers' 2500 litre allowance. The HMRC saw this as a straight up attempt to defraud the HMRC, and were none too pleased. I've no idea how much HMRC charged those producers with back-duty. Shocked

Bev

__________________________________
Greenworld Biodiesel Ltd, Huddersfield.

www.greenworldbiodiesel.co.uk - enqs@greenworldbiodiesel.co.uk

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treeboa
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

am i reading this correctly
say for 6 months i use bio, then i decide because of the distance to pick it up i will go with veg oil from the supermarket then i am not allowed this 2500ltrs duty free, if this is correct then just by purchasing say 1 gallon of bio to test the water in your vehicle you have ******** yourself up to cheaper never mind more greener motoring
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Nathaniel
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

treeboa wrote:
am i reading this correctly
say for 6 months i use bio, then i decide because of the distance to pick it up i will go with veg oil from the supermarket then i am not allowed this 2500ltrs duty free, if this is correct then just by purchasing say 1 gallon of bio to test the water in your vehicle you have ******** yourself up to cheaper never mind more greener motoring


No, you are not reading it correctly.

Buy tipping veg oil in your tank you are a "producer" and counts towards your 2500l per year allowance.

By BUYING Bio-diesel from another producer you are NOT a producer therefore this fuel does not count towards your 2500l a year allowance..

It does not affect your being allowed to claim the allowns on fuels YOU produce.

Clear?

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treeboa
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank god for that, cheers for clearing it nat

ok another question, assuming i have two vehicles in the family, both diesels, is it allowed 2500ltrs per vehicle or is that the total per registered address
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Biodiesel-Bev
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

treeboa wrote:
thank god for that, cheers for clearing it nat

ok another question, assuming i have two vehicles in the family, both diesels, is it allowed 2500ltrs per vehicle or is that the total per registered address


Tricky one.

If you were making your own biodiesel, then it is 2,500 per producer. If you were also making biodiesel at another premises you wouldn't be entitled to another 2,500 litres, as this would be classed as 'disaggregation'.

So, taking the above into account. If you buy SVO to use in your vehicle you become a 'producer' and therefor I would assume that it wouldn't matter how many different vehicles you were putting the SVO in you, as the producer, would only be entitled to 2,500 litres road duty free.

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www.greenworldbiodiesel.co.uk - enqs@greenworldbiodiesel.co.uk

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The Smiths
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the other way of looking at it is that your partner could also be a producer for the second vehicle Very Happy

Two cars, 2 people, 2 producers.

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treeboa
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But the other way of looking at it is that your partner could also be a producer for the second vehicle


i had already got that one in the pipeline Wink
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Biodiesel-Bev
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Smiths wrote:
But the other way of looking at it is that your partner could also be a producer for the second vehicle Very Happy

Two cars, 2 people, 2 producers.



In relation to biodiesel production, it doesn't work like that, unfortunately.

Using the rules regarding biodiesel producers, it isn't per producer, it's per premises. If Mr and Mrs Bloggs lived together and both bought SVO, they would only be entilted to one allowance of 2,500 litres , as it is based on per producer premises not per person. Also, if Mr and Mrs Bloggs had a second house and tried to claim the second 2,500 allowance via the other premises, they wouldn't be allowed to do this as this is 'disaggregation'.

Just to clarify, I'm basing this assumption on the biodiesel producer rules.

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www.greenworldbiodiesel.co.uk - enqs@greenworldbiodiesel.co.uk

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treeboa
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well that sounds like good reasons for a divorce Twisted Evil
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uk_vette
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nathaniel wrote:
treeboa wrote:
am i reading this correctly
say for 6 months i use bio, then i decide because of the distance to pick it up i will go with veg oil from the supermarket then i am not allowed this 2500ltrs duty free, if this is correct then just by purchasing say 1 gallon of bio to test the water in your vehicle you have ******** yourself up to cheaper never mind more greener motoring


No, you are not reading it correctly.

Buy tipping veg oil in your tank you are a "producer" and counts towards your 2500l per year allowance.

By BUYING Bio-diesel from another producer you are NOT a producer therefore this fuel does not count towards your 2500l a year allowance..

It does not affect your being allowed to claim the allowns on fuels YOU produce.

Clear?
,
,
,
Another twist,

if I buy bio from a supplier, and then I further add oil bought from the supermarket, surly I am now the producer, as I am producing my own biodiesel / fuel.

G

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ferino wrote:
Hi Johnathanm

Newbie here.
I will be in Liverpool this summer and would like to switch to bio.
I am currently using 50/50 dino/svo in my Pajero with no problems.
I will be staying near Kirkby. There are now 2 suppliers on the Kirkby Industrial Estate, so which one did you try, Biofuels or Refuel?
Will stay clear of the one you used! Refuel are charging 96p/lt so wouldn't go there at that price.
My main reasons for switching will be convenience (gets a bit tedious going to Tescos, loading the trolley with Pura at 56p/lt and then pouring 1lt bottles into tank, going to petrol station to top up with dino) and cost.
Currently works out 107+56/2=81.5p/lt.
I've seen good quality Bio advertised for 51p+5%VAT=53.5p/lt in the South.
You buy it as heating oil so VAT is only 5% and no road tax.
You can then legally 'change your mind' and use it as part of your 2500lt allowance. Just keep records to show you've used less than 2500lt per annum. Legal loophole!!

Let me know how you get on in St Helens. Not too far to travel if it's good quality and price.

Regards
Ferino


Got a feeling that the two sites in Kirkby are both sites that have been used by the same producer, one is an old address though.

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