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Using Veg Oil / Bio Diesel in a 200TDI

 
 
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spongo
Just got MTs


Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Odometer: 121
Location: Gods own county



PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:41 pm    Post subject: Using Veg Oil / Bio Diesel in a 200TDI Reply with quote

Just want to know the views on here about using veg oil and bio diesel in a 200TDI engine as I am just about to embark on an engine swap in my bobtail. Would like to know costs of any changes that are required etc and if using these fuels has any detrimental effect on the engine.

Cheers

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markyb
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Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Odometer: 1188
Location: Hampshire



PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello, ive been running pure veg in my 200tdi disco ive done nearly 10,000 miles.

i do run a twin tank system and i heat the oil

I do run down on diesel and start up on diesel until warm then switch to veg.

there are lots of options for heaters ,tanks etc depending on what you are doing, I currently run an electric type heater , ok, but not the best i will switch to a dual one soon as i can be bothered. That uses engine coolant and electric.

but if you plan to mix in with 1 tank i would still heat the oil.. something around veg oil burns the same as diesel at 70degrees C.

this time of year you need to mix more diesel as cold veg will bring bad starting. it goes pretty thick in the weather we are having at present.

just my view but i have a defender that sits about gets offloaded and a run to work now and again and i only use diesel in it as i think the veg might go funny if left for long periods,,

also if you are using existing tank the veg will clean it and your need to carry a spare fuel filter on your travels/


I suspect a few more people will be a long soon to update on my views
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Nathaniel
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 13 May 2003
Odometer: 17901
Location: North, North Yorkshire


1979 Suzuki LJ

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

Running properly made Bio-Diesel (NOT the same as veg oil!) requires no modifications to your engine or car. No worries!

Veg oil in a Direct Injection engine Ie. Your 200TDI does ideally require a twin tank system, these can be easily built and fitted yourself for less than £150, or expect to pay £800+ to have it done "professionally"

Running veg oil in a DI with no mods can ultimately lead to piston ring gumming and engine failire due to oil polymerisation (It turns to glue!)

Be warned.

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Nat

If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out
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spongo
Just got MTs


Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Odometer: 121
Location: Gods own county



PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering the mileage I will be doing (only about 2000 - 3000 a year) seems the best bet is to use biodiesel then, cant really justify fitting a twin tank set up for SVO.


Cheers

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Of all the things I have lost it is my mind I miss the most!

Range Rover P38 Overfinch on LPG sometimes if it feels like it Smile
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gavind
Gate Opener


Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Odometer: 2
Location: Gloucestershire



PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, I'm thinking of going with a twin-tank for my 200TDI Defender... Can anyone give me an idea of how long it takes for the engine to heat up enough to switch to veg oil? My understanding is that the thing that really needs to be hot to avoid damage is the injectors (although I realise that the oil needs to be heated to get it to flow in the first place).

Also, has anyone tried patching the vegetable oil lines in *after* the main fuel filter, thus avoiding the clogging problems that can occur there?

And has anyone tried using exhaust heat rather than coolant to warm up the vegetable oil (faster?) - or is that just madness?
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Nathaniel
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Joined: 13 May 2003
Odometer: 17901
Location: North, North Yorkshire


1979 Suzuki LJ

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Gavin, welcome to Difflock.

Firsly you NEED to pass any fuel enering the fuel pump through a PROPER diesel filter, a heated one is good for veg oil in cold weather.

if I was making a TDI twin tank I would splash out and fit TWO flat plate heat exchangers, have 1 for diesel and 1 for veg You could share them with a single one after the changeove valve but this extends your purging time drasticly.

I have seen an exhaust heat exchanger but coolant is much better as you can't overheat with it - and damage the IP. 70*c s about optimal.

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Nat

If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out
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gavind
Gate Opener


Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Odometer: 2
Location: Gloucestershire



PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Nathaniel... Tis good to be back.

I'd certainly have a diesel filter, but a separate one would seem like a good idea.

Are you suggesting heating the diesel, too..?

I suppose overheating would be the issue with an exhaust heat exchanger - it'd need some relatively fancy gear to avoid that. You could actually make chips with your vehicle that way, though...
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Megansfolly
Just got MTs


Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Odometer: 165
Location: High wycombe


1985 Land Rover 90nad

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i ve just put 6 litres of veg oil in my nad 90 and oh my god what a difference runs so much smoother and quiter and so much more power Very Happy
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Nathaniel
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Joined: 13 May 2003
Odometer: 17901
Location: North, North Yorkshire


1979 Suzuki LJ

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Megansfolly - Be VERY careful adding veg oil to an engine such as yours fitted with a Lucas/CAV fuel pump - you have a very high chance of destroying the injection pump.

Gavin, the key to twin tanking is getting the injection pump and fuel lines as hot as possible before switching to veg - so the oil burns fully and cleanly - removing the risk of ring gumming.

The key to quick purge times is filters and FPHE's BEFORE the changeover valve and then the changeover valve as close to the IP as possible.

Nat

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Nat

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pope
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Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Odometer: 226
Location: Builth Wells



PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MY 200 Tdi Disco Smart veg set up switches over at about 45 degrees C, that's actual fuel temp not water temp which would be nearer 80 C usually takes about 2 miles depending on the weather obviously, that's using a 4 foot long hose in hose heat exchanger, not sure how this would compare to a flat plate heater. One point worth remembering with a defender(not that I've ever owned one), but from what I see of them with covers over the radiator in winter to get them to heat up a bit better, there may be a problem with them not shifting enough hot water through the heater circuit to heat the oil enough. Don't know if this is an issue but needs thinking about.
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crazymac
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Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Odometer: 2389
Location: Pembrokeshire, West Wales



PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm running a Discovery 200Tdi on a 50/50 mix os SVO and diesel.

Have been for about 7K now with no problems. I changed my fuel filter after the 1st thousand, and have just done a second change on 6 thousand.

I live by the coast, so rarely get it freezing, but I have had a couple of cold mornings where it was sluggish to start.

I fancy going to 100% SVO and looking at the Vow2 heaters to achieve this.

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Nathaniel
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 13 May 2003
Odometer: 17901
Location: North, North Yorkshire


1979 Suzuki LJ

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazymac wrote:
I fancy going to 100% SVO and looking at the Vow2 heaters to achieve this.


Use a Vow2 how?

Trying to heat up the oil before starting?

you really do need a twin tank on a TDI for high blends...

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Nat

If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out
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crazymac
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Joined: 22 Feb 2008
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Location: Pembrokeshire, West Wales



PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nathaniel wrote:
crazymac wrote:
I fancy going to 100% SVO and looking at the Vow2 heaters to achieve this.


Use a Vow2 how?

Trying to heat up the oil before starting?

you really do need a twin tank on a TDI for high blends...


Yeh, thats how it looks on their site http://www.vow2.co.uk/Whatare.htm

For the money, it looks like a great way to go, even if I have to add in another tank, it will still work out cheaper.

Having read the site again, its only talking 90% but even at that I can be saving about 57p in every litre! so on an 80 litre fill I save around £45.00!! works for me!!

I fill about every two weeks, so thats about £1100 a year saving, I could rebuild my engine for that saving!!

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Winnet
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Joined: 03 Dec 2003
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Location: Aberdeen


1985 Land Rover

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazymac wrote:
Nathaniel wrote:
crazymac wrote:
I fancy going to 100% SVO and looking at the Vow2 heaters to achieve this.


Use a Vow2 how?

Trying to heat up the oil before starting?

you really do need a twin tank on a TDI for high blends...


Yeh, thats how it looks on their site http://www.vow2.co.uk/Whatare.htm

For the money, it looks like a great way to go, even if I have to add in another tank, it will still work out cheaper.

Having read the site again, its only talking 90% but even at that I can be saving about 57p in every litre! so on an 80 litre fill I save around £45.00!! works for me!!

I fill about every two weeks, so thats about £1100 a year saving, I could rebuild my engine for that saving!!



Interesting wee site that.

G.

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Nathaniel
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Joined: 13 May 2003
Odometer: 17901
Location: North, North Yorkshire


1979 Suzuki LJ

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry but they are talking TOTAL TRASH on that VOW2 site...

Firstly, having an electric heater with 2 glowplugs switched on continously, you will find that it knocks 2-3mpg OFF your fuel consumption!

Quote:

Twin tanks, switchover valves and water heaters.
Kits can be £300 to £500 and £1200 fitted. Self fitting can be quite difficult. Allows 100% veg oil to be used so will save £££ on fuel. You still need to use diesel so it's not really 100% especially if you only use the car once or twice a day for short trips.



********, I built my twin tank kit for £130 and it could've been even cheap with a bit more work, Fitting is as simple as connecting pipes and wires!

Quote:

Single tank with electric heating.
This is your cheapest option at £30 to £150 and 70-90% oil can be used. Quick and easy to fit. Pump is stressed more at startup but only lasts 120 seconds before hot oil is delivered.



PUMP IS STRESSED?
Tripe.

Cold Veg DOES NOT stress injector pumps - sure it can seize Lucas and CAV pumps (Due to it not being able to leak past the seals to lubrucate the shaft)

The Damage caused to engines is from injecting cold veg through cold injectors onto cold pistons.
Basically Thick cold veg does not spray properly from an injector, making it hard to ignite, therefore a lot of it doesn't burn and ends up sticking to the pistons and cylinder walls where it dries and gums up, sticking the pistons rings into their grooves.
Direct Injection engines are much more suceptable to ring gumming.

You could get the oil in the fuel lines to 200*c if you wished BUT you would still be pushing cold oil out of a cold pump through cold injectors and onto cold pistons....

I'm not saying VOW2 heaters don't heat the oil - they do to some extent, but hot oil isn't going to keep much heat when faced with 2kg of cold injector pump is it?

THIS is a much better site for parts
http://www.biotuning.co.uk/Home.htm

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Nat

If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out
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