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spongo Just got MTs
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Odometer: 121 Location: Gods own county
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Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: Using Veg Oil / Bio Diesel in a 200TDI
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Just want to know the views on here about using veg oil and bio diesel in a 200TDI engine as I am just about to embark on an engine swap in my bobtail. Would like to know costs of any changes that are required etc and if using these fuels has any detrimental effect on the engine.
Cheers
__________________________________ Of all the things I have lost it is my mind I miss the most!
Range Rover P38 Overfinch on LPG sometimes if it feels like it |
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markyb Off-Road Guru
Joined: 27 Jan 2004 Odometer: 1188 Location: Hampshire
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Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject:
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hello, ive been running pure veg in my 200tdi disco ive done nearly 10,000 miles.
i do run a twin tank system and i heat the oil
I do run down on diesel and start up on diesel until warm then switch to veg.
there are lots of options for heaters ,tanks etc depending on what you are doing, I currently run an electric type heater , ok, but not the best i will switch to a dual one soon as i can be bothered. That uses engine coolant and electric.
but if you plan to mix in with 1 tank i would still heat the oil.. something around veg oil burns the same as diesel at 70degrees C.
this time of year you need to mix more diesel as cold veg will bring bad starting. it goes pretty thick in the weather we are having at present.
just my view but i have a defender that sits about gets offloaded and a run to work now and again and i only use diesel in it as i think the veg might go funny if left for long periods,,
also if you are using existing tank the veg will clean it and your need to carry a spare fuel filter on your travels/
I suspect a few more people will be a long soon to update on my views
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Nathaniel Difflock Royalty
Joined: 13 May 2003 Odometer: 17901 Location: North, North Yorkshire
1979 Suzuki LJ
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Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject:
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Hello,
Running properly made Bio-Diesel (NOT the same as veg oil!) requires no modifications to your engine or car. No worries!
Veg oil in a Direct Injection engine Ie. Your 200TDI does ideally require a twin tank system, these can be easily built and fitted yourself for less than £150, or expect to pay £800+ to have it done "professionally"
Running veg oil in a DI with no mods can ultimately lead to piston ring gumming and engine failire due to oil polymerisation (It turns to glue!)
Be warned.
__________________________________ Nat
If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out |
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spongo Just got MTs
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Odometer: 121 Location: Gods own county
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Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:17 pm Post subject:
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Considering the mileage I will be doing (only about 2000 - 3000 a year) seems the best bet is to use biodiesel then, cant really justify fitting a twin tank set up for SVO.
Cheers
__________________________________ Of all the things I have lost it is my mind I miss the most!
Range Rover P38 Overfinch on LPG sometimes if it feels like it |
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gavind Gate Opener
Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Odometer: 2 Location: Gloucestershire
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject:
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Hi, I'm thinking of going with a twin-tank for my 200TDI Defender... Can anyone give me an idea of how long it takes for the engine to heat up enough to switch to veg oil? My understanding is that the thing that really needs to be hot to avoid damage is the injectors (although I realise that the oil needs to be heated to get it to flow in the first place).
Also, has anyone tried patching the vegetable oil lines in *after* the main fuel filter, thus avoiding the clogging problems that can occur there?
And has anyone tried using exhaust heat rather than coolant to warm up the vegetable oil (faster?) - or is that just madness?
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Nathaniel Difflock Royalty
Joined: 13 May 2003 Odometer: 17901 Location: North, North Yorkshire
1979 Suzuki LJ
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:36 pm Post subject:
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Hi Gavin, welcome to Difflock.
Firsly you NEED to pass any fuel enering the fuel pump through a PROPER diesel filter, a heated one is good for veg oil in cold weather.
if I was making a TDI twin tank I would splash out and fit TWO flat plate heat exchangers, have 1 for diesel and 1 for veg You could share them with a single one after the changeove valve but this extends your purging time drasticly.
I have seen an exhaust heat exchanger but coolant is much better as you can't overheat with it - and damage the IP. 70*c s about optimal.
__________________________________ Nat
If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out |
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gavind Gate Opener
Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Odometer: 2 Location: Gloucestershire
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:05 am Post subject:
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Thanks, Nathaniel... Tis good to be back.
I'd certainly have a diesel filter, but a separate one would seem like a good idea.
Are you suggesting heating the diesel, too..?
I suppose overheating would be the issue with an exhaust heat exchanger - it'd need some relatively fancy gear to avoid that. You could actually make chips with your vehicle that way, though...
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Megansfolly Just got MTs
Joined: 15 Jan 2008 Odometer: 165 Location: High wycombe
1985 Land Rover 90nad
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject:
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i ve just put 6 litres of veg oil in my nad 90 and oh my god what a difference runs so much smoother and quiter and so much more power
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Nathaniel Difflock Royalty
Joined: 13 May 2003 Odometer: 17901 Location: North, North Yorkshire
1979 Suzuki LJ
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject:
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Megansfolly - Be VERY careful adding veg oil to an engine such as yours fitted with a Lucas/CAV fuel pump - you have a very high chance of destroying the injection pump.
Gavin, the key to twin tanking is getting the injection pump and fuel lines as hot as possible before switching to veg - so the oil burns fully and cleanly - removing the risk of ring gumming.
The key to quick purge times is filters and FPHE's BEFORE the changeover valve and then the changeover valve as close to the IP as possible.
Nat
__________________________________ Nat
If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out |
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pope Just got MTs
Joined: 28 Aug 2005 Odometer: 226 Location: Builth Wells
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject:
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MY 200 Tdi Disco Smart veg set up switches over at about 45 degrees C, that's actual fuel temp not water temp which would be nearer 80 C usually takes about 2 miles depending on the weather obviously, that's using a 4 foot long hose in hose heat exchanger, not sure how this would compare to a flat plate heater. One point worth remembering with a defender(not that I've ever owned one), but from what I see of them with covers over the radiator in winter to get them to heat up a bit better, there may be a problem with them not shifting enough hot water through the heater circuit to heat the oil enough. Don't know if this is an issue but needs thinking about.
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crazymac Mud Obsessed
Joined: 22 Feb 2008 Odometer: 2389 Location: Pembrokeshire, West Wales
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Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:16 pm Post subject:
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I'm running a Discovery 200Tdi on a 50/50 mix os SVO and diesel.
Have been for about 7K now with no problems. I changed my fuel filter after the 1st thousand, and have just done a second change on 6 thousand.
I live by the coast, so rarely get it freezing, but I have had a couple of cold mornings where it was sluggish to start.
I fancy going to 100% SVO and looking at the Vow2 heaters to achieve this.
__________________________________ If I had to explain, you wouldn't understand
http://www.ww4x4.co.uk/index.php |
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Nathaniel Difflock Royalty
Joined: 13 May 2003 Odometer: 17901 Location: North, North Yorkshire
1979 Suzuki LJ
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Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:07 am Post subject:
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crazymac wrote: | I fancy going to 100% SVO and looking at the Vow2 heaters to achieve this. |
Use a Vow2 how?
Trying to heat up the oil before starting?
you really do need a twin tank on a TDI for high blends...
__________________________________ Nat
If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out |
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crazymac Mud Obsessed
Joined: 22 Feb 2008 Odometer: 2389 Location: Pembrokeshire, West Wales
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Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:58 am Post subject:
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Nathaniel wrote: | crazymac wrote: | I fancy going to 100% SVO and looking at the Vow2 heaters to achieve this. |
Use a Vow2 how?
Trying to heat up the oil before starting?
you really do need a twin tank on a TDI for high blends... |
Yeh, thats how it looks on their site http://www.vow2.co.uk/Whatare.htm
For the money, it looks like a great way to go, even if I have to add in another tank, it will still work out cheaper.
Having read the site again, its only talking 90% but even at that I can be saving about 57p in every litre! so on an 80 litre fill I save around £45.00!! works for me!!
I fill about every two weeks, so thats about £1100 a year saving, I could rebuild my engine for that saving!!
__________________________________ If I had to explain, you wouldn't understand
http://www.ww4x4.co.uk/index.php |
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Winnet Difflock Royalty
Joined: 03 Dec 2003 Odometer: 14725 Location: Aberdeen
1985 Land Rover
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Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject:
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crazymac wrote: | Nathaniel wrote: | crazymac wrote: | I fancy going to 100% SVO and looking at the Vow2 heaters to achieve this. |
Use a Vow2 how?
Trying to heat up the oil before starting?
you really do need a twin tank on a TDI for high blends... |
Yeh, thats how it looks on their site http://www.vow2.co.uk/Whatare.htm
For the money, it looks like a great way to go, even if I have to add in another tank, it will still work out cheaper.
Having read the site again, its only talking 90% but even at that I can be saving about 57p in every litre! so on an 80 litre fill I save around £45.00!! works for me!!
I fill about every two weeks, so thats about £1100 a year saving, I could rebuild my engine for that saving!! |
Interesting wee site that.
G.
__________________________________ Bored......
All these questions and more after the tea break. |
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Nathaniel Difflock Royalty
Joined: 13 May 2003 Odometer: 17901 Location: North, North Yorkshire
1979 Suzuki LJ
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Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject:
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I'm sorry but they are talking TOTAL TRASH on that VOW2 site...
Firstly, having an electric heater with 2 glowplugs switched on continously, you will find that it knocks 2-3mpg OFF your fuel consumption!
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Twin tanks, switchover valves and water heaters.
Kits can be £300 to £500 and £1200 fitted. Self fitting can be quite difficult. Allows 100% veg oil to be used so will save £££ on fuel. You still need to use diesel so it's not really 100% especially if you only use the car once or twice a day for short trips. |
********, I built my twin tank kit for £130 and it could've been even cheap with a bit more work, Fitting is as simple as connecting pipes and wires!
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Single tank with electric heating.
This is your cheapest option at £30 to £150 and 70-90% oil can be used. Quick and easy to fit. Pump is stressed more at startup but only lasts 120 seconds before hot oil is delivered. |
PUMP IS STRESSED?
Tripe.
Cold Veg DOES NOT stress injector pumps - sure it can seize Lucas and CAV pumps (Due to it not being able to leak past the seals to lubrucate the shaft)
The Damage caused to engines is from injecting cold veg through cold injectors onto cold pistons.
Basically Thick cold veg does not spray properly from an injector, making it hard to ignite, therefore a lot of it doesn't burn and ends up sticking to the pistons and cylinder walls where it dries and gums up, sticking the pistons rings into their grooves.
Direct Injection engines are much more suceptable to ring gumming.
You could get the oil in the fuel lines to 200*c if you wished BUT you would still be pushing cold oil out of a cold pump through cold injectors and onto cold pistons....
I'm not saying VOW2 heaters don't heat the oil - they do to some extent, but hot oil isn't going to keep much heat when faced with 2kg of cold injector pump is it?
THIS is a much better site for parts
http://www.biotuning.co.uk/Home.htm
__________________________________ Nat
If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out |
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