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lpg help please

 
 
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Wollys World :)
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:01 pm    Post subject: lpg help please Reply with quote

Hi all, i am just about to start to remove an LPG kit out of a 3.0L patrol which runs a carb and will be trying to fit it to a 2.9i V6 which i may be running a carb if need be.

The kit is a Stako, Type Emer MTV 512E67-0 27 bar

Now the firts thing is that i have found is disconnecting the outlet on the tank, there is no cut of tap like there is on the intake?

here is the sender



top being the outlet and the bottom the inlet which has the yellow cut off tap.

so how do i disconnect the outlet without loosing all the 3/4 tank of gas?

thanks in advance

wolly Very Happy

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suzukishrek
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doesn't matter Wayne, just undo it. It will vent slightly but there are shut off valves inside the brass fitting on the tank - just undo the copper pipes and a little LPG will escape but don't worry about that.
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Wollys World :)
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi G, did that and a good bit came out which i thought was just back pressure but it didnt seem to slow so i did it back up, i will give it another go tomoz kida.
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suzukishrek
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good bit wil come out because of whats pressurised in the loooong pipework, the vaporiser and maybe up to the mixer too. Last one I did like that, took a good 45 seconds to vent clear. Mind you, I've never seen one with a tap on it either!!! Confused
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What puzled me n barny is why the heck would it have a tap on the inlet and not the outlet??
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Nathaniel
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That solenoid does the switching off of the gas.

I suspect that the yellow tap switches both of them off, either that or its the big brass nut next to the solenoid?

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Wollys World :)
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Nat, thats what i though but as said there was a good bit of gas coming out when i undone the outlet pipe.
will sort it tomoz then.

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suzukishrek
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I'm aware, a tank has to be manufactured with self closing valves in case of a fracture of one of the pipes!

Wayne, what make is the actual LPG system. Stako only make tanks as far as I know! Follow the wiring loom back from any of the solenoids until you find a box of electronics... the name should be on there. Might be on the vapouriser too!

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this the vapouriser ?


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suzukishrek
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the one mate. Hot water from the engine helps vapourise the gas and get the pressures right too.

Wonder if one of these would work on veggie oil too? Laughing

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will put my thoughts on here Graham.

Since the straight six 3.0 engine was running the lpg on carb then if i can sort the adaptor between the carb and inlet manifold on the 2.9 V6 then in reason it should go ??

I will get some more info tomoz on the set up G.

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suzukishrek
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't see any reason why not. Carbed LPG systems are normally very easy to setup and get running, you just need the right mixer (adapter as you call it).

What about the EFi stuff though?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just get rid ??? replace with the carb and inlet.
Quote:
What about the EFi stuff though?



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suzukishrek
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay lad, sounds like a plan to me. Laughing

Before you do it, can you check your system and just see if it does have all the required parts built in to run an EFi system? I have a carb only LPG system and an EFi engine - you're going the other way, we might need to swap! Laughing

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1992 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here si the kit taken off now.


On this switc i says A.G.8, i think


And another bit?


And the gas goes into the center of the filter intake bit Laughing


The name on the vaporizer and other parts is ROMANO AUTOGAS.

Graham me owd,
Quote:
What about the EFi stuff though?

Did you mean in the lpg kit ? As the kit i got is a carb one, are we mixed up here with each other, you know like we do Laughing
Quote:
Before you do it, can you check your system and just see if it does have all the required parts built in to run an EFi system? I have a carb only LPG system and an EFi engine - you're going the other way, we might need to swap


Taken the full set up off today inbetween other stuff Rolling Eyes and managed to get the pipe work of in good nick also, so mite consider using that to?



wolly Very Happy

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webber1982
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol the switch is a aeb switch probarbly and i recon ull need to change the mixing rind to fit the v6 engine but that switch wont run with a carb because its wired into the petrol injecion i think take a pic of the back of it and let me see the wiring colours i thak it the patrol it came off was petrol injection? if not then it will be ok but it looks like a aeb petrol start switch to me.
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Wollys World :)
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1992 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi kida, here is the pic of the back of the switch.



The engine it has come of though is a carb engine????


wolly Very Happy

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh ye and cut these 3 wires and forgot to mark where they went Rolling Eyes



the wires come from the dual switch i think but dont know where they should go???

wolly Very Happy

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suzukishrek
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In your first picture (of the switch), that's just to enable you to select what fuel type you want to run on - petrol or LPG. It will be at least a 2 position switch, maybe a 3 position with the third been AUTO. Most LPG vehicles start on petrol (especially EFi ones as the injectors can gum up with petrol going through them on a regular basis) and then when the engine is warm you switch to LPG either manually or through the AUTO position which does it for you.

2nd picture: a fuel solenoid basically. Shove 12V up it's ass and it will let LPG flow, remove the voltage and the flow stops. There's probably several of these about the truck.

3rd picture: well you've figured that yourself. Laughing

Now for the EFi bit: The LPG system you have may, just may, have all the electrical gubbings required to run an EFi built right into it. Some do, some don't and if yours does it obviously won't be being used but it may still be present. I doubt you'll know the answer to that, but the model number of the system and a quick Google should give the answer... so what's the system model number Wayne?

webber1982 wrote:
lol the switch is a aeb switch probarbly and i recon ull need to change the mixing rind to fit the v6 engine but that switch wont run with a carb because its wired into the petrol injecion i think

You will most likely need a new mixer unless by some pure fluke the one you have will fit the carb you're going to convert to.

The switch will still be needed and will still work as all it does is control the switch over between petrol and LPG, which, if it's for an EFi system, will also enable/disable the injector emulator connected to the standard engine ECU. I'm guessing that there's another box of electronic widgetry somewhere in the truck that actually does all the 'brainwork' unless it's just for a carb system in which cases you've probably found everything already! Wink

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi G, ow tings kida Very Happy

Now this bit then in the middle of the filter that is siliconed in place with the holes, is this the mixing ring? if not what is itand an i fit this to the new filter.

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suzukishrek
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah things okay here mate ta. Very Happy

Can you get some more pictures of that 'thing' cos I can't quite make out where/what everything is? Can you get some of the other side too?

Mixers normally sit underneath the carb or on EFi system before the air flow sensor, but not always. They normally have a large round hole with a series of smaller holes round the inside edge (or on the underside) that the LPG passes through and gets sucked into the airstream.

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1992 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now then , got some more pics to show whats happening.
How it was on the car with carb with an adaptor plate on the bottom of the carb, which i now found isnt the mixer.


The bottom carb plate/adaptor was bolted to here.


I have found that this is the mixer ring which goes above the carb, this is know as the `cooker ring`, you can just the holes in the middle.


I was thinking maybe i could fit this carb to the V6, i will need to find out the bolt settings first obviousley.

This shows where the lpg feed goes into the filter, seems a bit of bodge job realy, just filled in with a sort of silicon.



Have been reading up a bit and found out that the early lpg kits were fitted like this with the feed going like this then they changed to single injection and so on.

Still need to know where the 3 wirse need to go though.



these 3 go to the plug which connected to the patrol engine????


wolly Very Happy

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suzukishrek
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

X-ULK II wrote:
I have found that this is the mixer ring which goes above the carb, this is know as the `cooker ring`, you can just the holes in the middle.

Aye, that's the mixer lad, it simply lets the LPG 'drift' through the holes and get sucked down into the engine.

X-ULK II wrote:
I was thinking maybe i could fit this carb to the V6, i will need to find out the bolt settings first obviousley.

Well if it will physically fit the engine it came off is a 3.0l and you're wanting to fit it to a 2.9 so it should work - does the carb need other take-offs or whatever that the engine capable of providing. A bit like a standard SJ Aisin carb has loads of vac take-offs connected to the carb!

Still need to know where the 3 wirse need to go though.



X-ULK II wrote:
these 3 go to the plug which connected to the patrol engine????

Can't you go and look at the digitial photos you took as you were removing the system? Laughing Sorry Wayne, couldn't resist. Twisted Evil I have no idea where they come from or go to. Have you got the main power pick up wires accounted for or any indicator lights etc?

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Rossko
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gawd, this is scary. Hopefully you'll be able to learn a bit more before attempting to re-fit this.

Swapping a carb around from one engine to something vaguely similar will "sort of" work. Swapping a mixer in the same way will likely give similar results - thats to say it might work well, more likely it will work but not very well. It certainly won't work if you put it between carb and manifold, it need to be upstream of the throttle (think about why!). The mixer isn't just a gas ring, it is an aerodynamic device using venturi effect ; this means it needs sizing correctly to suit the engine.

Best buy a mixer to suit the car you're putting it on, they're not expensive, and keep the correct carb. After all you will be using new pipes etc anyway ... won't you?

For carb use, you should have a 3 position switch and a petrol cut-off solenoid. The switch has petrol on - centre off - gas on, and is quite different from the type described earlier with 'centre auto' which is strictly for EFI. You need the centre off with a carb to allow it run on while both fuel supplies are off, to empty the float chamber. When it splutters you flick to gas.

The tank valve advice you've had already, but bear in mind that (rarely) the valves may stick. Don't do this in a garage, over a pit or near drains - the gas is heavier than air.

Switch wires -
Black - a GOOD earth point
Red - an ignitition-switched & fused (7.5A) +12V supply
Brown - an RPM signal, usually taken from coil -ve
Blue - gas ON , connect to tank solenoid, front filter/solenoid, and other devices that need turning on with the gas
Yellow - petrol SHUTOFF valve
Green and White are for the tank level gauge - may have one or both left unconnected depending on the sender type.



cheers, Ross K

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Wollys World :)
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ross

Quote:
Gawd, this is scary.


Why?

If the carb fits properly there is no reason i cant use it as the mixer is already fitted in the filter. I will find out when i collect the engine this weekend.

Quote:
The tank valve advice you've had already, but bear in mind that (rarely) the valves may stick. Don't do this in a garage, over a pit or near drains - the gas is heavier than air.


may be called wolly but not by nature i hope Laughing
I will be getting plenty of advice and probably help before i fit this, that is why i am here Wink

I work with LPG all day long so know enough how dangerous i can be.

Thanks for the advice Ross many thanks kida Very Happy

wolly Very Happy

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Rossko
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well you did say the 'target' was a 2.9i, so the carb wont likely fit straight on. Seems simpler to buy a mixer to suit the EFI. Does the EFI system run the ignition on those too, or is that independant?

cheers, Ross K

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ross, whats it is , i have a 2.9i ford V6 and will be putting that in my project and was wondering how i go about fitting this PLG kit of a 3.0l straight six carb engine.
Now as the LPG kit cant go on the 2.9i (unless i get a new mixer )then i can swap the EFI set up for a carb, just need the inlet manifold and carb.
Onlt thinking to swap to carb as setting up the EFI electronics would be a bit of a pain as i have been told so that brought me to swapping to a carb as the LPG kit is a carb kit.

If i could get the LPG kit to match up with the EFI set up then how do i go about it?
I will keep with the EFI if i find out it isnt to bad to set up..


Quote:
Does the EFI system run the ignition on those too, or is that independant?


Dont know yet Rolling Eyes

wolly Very Happy

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Rossko
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm beginning to grasp whats going on now .. maybe!

X-ULK II wrote:
Quote:
Does the EFI system run the ignition on those too, or is that independant?

Dont know yet Rolling Eyes


That might be the deciding factor in the end then?

In general terms;

You can run (older) EFI engines with a mixer-style gas system. A mixer is fitted upstream of the throttle body, in the same way as its fitted upstream of a carb. The thing to be wary of on complicated EFI air systems is that the mixer really is upstream of all air inlets to the cylinders - things like idle air bypass can be overlooked.

Results using a mixer LPG system on an EFI engine can be 'disappointing' - prone to backfires, response lag, blah blah. Mixers won't work in modern EFI engines with intelligent engine management systems, as the whole thing is geared up to managing itself and it can't control the fuelling accurately. It invariably ends up thinking theres a fault and going into limp-home mode. Mixers can work well on some older EFI engines that aren't too computerised, but it depends on factors like simple manifold design. Sophisticated V6s with torque-boosting long and short airpaths can be especially troublesome... I think that would apply to Cougar engines but not Mundano??

In your particular case - never mind the LPG for a minute, would fitting a carb onto an EFI manifold work very well? Probably not as the manifolds are often designed along completely different principles. Might work after a fashion, might have dead-ends where petrol can collect and later explode, might have really long air tracts ruining the transient response ... you'd have to look at it carefully. Really you'd need a differnt manifold specifically for carb in most cases.

If you expect to run petrol, you need to think about fuel pumps - different for EFI or petrol.

However, maybe you intend never to run it on petrol, only LPG. You could fit the carb and use it just as throttle body for LPG use. Can't see the point in that we already have a purpose made throttle body?

Mixers are sized (internal measurement is the important one) to suit the airflow characteristics of a particular engine. One intended for a straight-six 3.0 of Brand X might suit someone elses 2.9 V6 reasonably well, or might be a compromise i.e. will work but not as well as it should. Horsepower rating would be a better guide to compatibility than capacity. From the old setup, you can see its just a case of fittng the mixer in the air intake as best you can. The right way round!

The LPG/petrol changeover control gear differs from carbs to EFI, looks similar with three positions but work in a different sequence. Cheap enough to buy the the right one depending what you end up with.

cheers, Ross K

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