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P T O for a 404

 
 
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 942
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:32 pm    Post subject: P T O for a 404 Reply with quote

given that l am new to unimogs can somebody point me in the right direction here,
l want to put a winch on my mog l am rebuilding but l don't want one that sticks out the front like a landrover bumper type, l want some form of belly winch to fit between the chassis rails behind the gearbox so as l can winch forwards or backwards,
l would like this winch to be mechanically driven rather than electric, so l need a pto outlet, so the question is
where does it fit ( l realize its the gearbox but which side)
does it face forwards or backwards
and most importantly where do l get one?
is it the sort of thing that turns up on ebay or has anybody on here got one for sale

andy
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jollygreen
Winch Assistant


Joined: 24 Jul 2007
Odometer: 63
Location: Aberdeenshire



PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think it's the left hand side and it has flanges facing both backwards and forwards. So you should be able to take a shaft backwards and mount the winch in the middle OK.

You'll be £300 for the PTO unit, I got a brand new one (still boxed) chucked in for nowt with my Mog but I'm afraid i'm going to use it at some point. Laughing [/i]

__________________________________
Die Unimog Arsch tritten!
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daft as a brush
Gate Opener


Joined: 28 May 2007
Odometer: 9
Location: north kent



PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi all ti's a sound plan but PTOs turn clockwise at the back and anticlock at the front, and as far as i know are not reversible unlike a land rover PTO which goes through the main gearbox and you put the transfer box in neutral. your best bet is a hydraulic winch I found one that can run of the power steering pump and has electric control , but I just bought the winch and coupled it to the hyd connections on the mog.
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if at first you don't succeed use a bigger hammer
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Steveb
Gate Opener


Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Odometer: 44
Location: Suffolk



PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mr Brush,

What sort of winch is that then, a milemarker? would be interested to know how well it works off your mog hyd. supply...should pull well I would think. Cool

Cheers

Steveb
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 942
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi jollygreen
l have just found a picture of a pto for a 404, and you are indeed right it does bolt to the left hand side of the box and face both ways,
£300 Shocked wow that's more than half of what l payed for the whole mog Surprised

daft as a brush
that is a very good point, it never entered my head that the pto direction wouldn't reverse Embarassed
l must be used to land rover ones, well that scuppers my plans for a pto driven winch then.
l don't have any on board hydraulics to tap into, you must have a bigger mog

need to find a pump and mount it in line with the crank and directly driven from it then ?

cheers for now
andy
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minimog
Off-Road Guru


Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Odometer: 1700




PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the pto does only move in one direction for pulling (so you couldnt power the cable out to lower you off a large drop) but whats stopping you winding the rope/wire on in the oposite direction if your using it in the rear just to pull you out backwards
as for the pto £300 mabe from atkinson vos but they can be had a lot cheeper Wink

__________________________________
WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT"
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shaggy
Articulating


Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Odometer: 560
Location: Manchester, UK


1961 Mercedes-Benz Unimog 404 Doka

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've toyed with this idea and there is a straight path (on ours) from back to front - but a PTO would be slap bang in the middle of it.

In the end, I decided not to bother. We have a belt drive hydraulic pump with a 24V magnetic clutch. That's for a front winch. Eventually, we'd like a 24V on the back - theory being that the front one's for playing about, the back one's for pulling you out of something you shouldn't have driven into.

Having never had a winch before, I didn't know if hiding it in the middle would be a pain - do they try and unravel?

jim
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 942
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok a bit of lateral thinking here then
if the pto prop only turns in one direction, how about feeding it into a bedford cf 4 speed box ( small and strong ) made by zf, that way l could use reverse to feed the cable out or neutral to freewheel out and 1 to 4 as winch in speeds, and best of all another lever in the cab to play with ?
l am keen to go down the pto route as l have a 12 ton belly winch thats been behind the barn for 3 years getting all lonely
andy
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daft as a brush
Gate Opener


Joined: 28 May 2007
Odometer: 9
Location: north kent



PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi all yes steveb it is a mile marker but they are rated at 4 tonnes at 140 bar so they come with a 4 tonne cable, a u1000 runs at 230 bar so my cable keeps breaking other than this minor point it's s**t hot.
baloo i once had a 180 ton winch off a ship and that was powered by a twin petter and 4 speed gear box it two was s**t hot but heavy and a ******* to start. and you all may be interested to note that as standard mog hyd pumps are belt driven 2 vee belts on a u1000 and 1 on a u900. an shaggy has it not occurred to you to make the hyd winch demountable, mine is and fits the front,rear, front of rear load bed and trailer and slides into a channel and is locked into place using 2 m12 bolts. and on a personal note would it not make more sense to play with an electric winch an have a reliable hyd winch to get you out of the s**t ? john.

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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 942
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shaggy
where did you get you belt drive hydraulic pump from?, they weren't fitted to 404's were they? or is it from a bigger mog
where would l get one from, are there mog breakers about,
is the belt drive a vee belt or ribbed like a modern landrover
and does the clutch work like an air con one. so you can disengage the pump when you don't want it

cheers andy
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shaggy
Articulating


Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Odometer: 560
Location: Manchester, UK


1961 Mercedes-Benz Unimog 404 Doka

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Brush, Daft as a

Demounting - it has occurred to me, but the only time I ever needed a winch was after we ploughed it head first into a substantial ditch. There'd have been no swapping then, and I'm far too lazy to move it before being an idiot

>and on a personal note would it not make more sense to play with an
>electric winch an have a reliable hyd winch to get you out of the s**t
I see your logic, but it's that vs it working when the engine doesn't run. I'm more worried about killing the engine in water than anything else.

Mr Baloo,

I got the pump from a fellow mogger (b101uk over on benzworld) who's done us/me a few favours (he got the machining done for my hub puller as well). It is like an AC pump, with a 24V magnetic clutch. There are some clearance issues with it, but mostly with the mount - which has metal to spare.

It has no mercedes connection at all - I can post the details from it but I've no idea what it did come off, I don't think Mr Uk, b101 knew either. It's got a double V belt on it, and I haven't given any real thought to fitting it yet. I also managed to get a governer as well, but haven't thought of fitting that either.

Currently making the tool box / crane mount thing, then it's a roof, then it's hydraulics. And people think it's finished!

jim
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shaggy
Articulating


Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Odometer: 560
Location: Manchester, UK


1961 Mercedes-Benz Unimog 404 Doka

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pictures of the hydraulic pump

General thing -


The plate -


jim
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daft as a brush
Gate Opener


Joined: 28 May 2007
Odometer: 9
Location: north kent



PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi shaggy you have a very good point there as i am also far to lazy to move the winch before I'm in the s**t and would also bury the thing in the ground,up against a tree or rock before thinking about how I'm going to slide it forward out of the mount!!!
as far as clutches go it's the norm on tractors and mogs and the like to run the hyd pump all the time and to recirculate the oil however it has frequently occurred to me that some form of clutch would be a good idea especially when my mog(with 4 double acting circuits) springs a leak.
has anyone thought about a boat gearbox or the drive box from a driven roller such as a twin drum bomag from the 70s as they all have a forward neutral and revers on the one lever?
john

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if at first you don't succeed use a bigger hammer
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 942
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the pics shaggy,
l know what l am looking for now,
there is a commercial breakers up the road, they had a of transit mounted cherry picker in last time l was there, l think the hyd pump for the lift is belt driven off the engine, l will go and see them tomorrow and see if they still have it

cheers andy
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jeepmadmike
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 08 May 2005
Odometer: 4573
Location: between 6000+7000 rpm and Devon



PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

belt driven hydraulic pump i want one too for my G wagon, i have found a supplier of new ones too look at my tread in the extreme off roading section.
__________________________________
Land Rovers are the root of all evil!

Now i have gone and bought a D4!

one day i might buy a 86" series one like my dad had when i was a boy.
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 942
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi mike
thanks for the link to that hyd company l have had a good look at all the stuff they do and there's lots of interesting stuff there,
l fancy one of them connect/disconnect gear boxes
l have managed to scrounge a 140 bar pump and a pulley to match up with the serpentine drive belt on the tdi engine, one of them gear boxes to disconnect when l don't need pressure would be use full
l was toying with the idea of using a magnetic clutch of an aircon pump
but don't know wether it would be up to the job ?

cheers andy
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 942
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

one of the drawbacks about asking every body you know for a hyd pump is that more than 1 might turn up,

but the second one looks like it might shift quite a bit of fluid,
l could drill and tap the crank pulley and drive the pump via the little prop
so its turning all the time and doesn't stop when you put your foot on the clutch, use full for drive assist l think

but to give me enough room to fit it in l would have to move the engine back 12" or so, ho hum
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