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micky1 Just got MTs
Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Odometer: 353 Location: Bath
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:50 pm Post subject:
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Looks braced around the top with the roll bar to suspension mounts etc.
The tub is under-slung really by the looks of it with only the drivers weight to hold?
Great design IMO. loving the lack of springs and the hp of the engine,had one of those vts's as a kid and it flew.
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Lewis Winch Assistant
Joined: 24 Jul 2007 Odometer: 85
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:58 pm Post subject:
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micky1 wrote: | loving the lack of springs |
The Airshox are both spring and damper, and check strap for that matter
The buggy above seems to use them as bump stops too, which is bad, very bad
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baloo Articulating
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Odometer: 942 Location: Redditch
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject:
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bonerattler
l know it takes a while to get to grips with "no chassis" my first thoughts were along the lines of, it will rip all the suspension points out, or it will twist its self to bits, but l am coming round to the idea, after all many commercial airliners were built with aluminum and rivets for decades and many are still flying, and before the use of carbon fiber became wide spread many racing cars including formula 1 were constructed with ally and rivets, with double skinning in suitable areas an ally tub can be immensely strong ( l hope ) l believe the lotus elsie has a aluminum chassis that is bonded together ( not welded or riveted ) and no one worries about it falling apart ( do they ? ) but mark likes to push the boundaries, and if it falls apart he will just make it stronger next time
it was literally finished on friday and given a run out on sat, l'm sure many more tests will be completed before it goes into competition so lots of time to check for cracks and splits !
looking at the rear suspension the lower arms, the top A arm and the shocks all locate on to two pressed steel rails that run vertically up the back of the tub joining the roll bar/cage, thus spreading all the loads out over a wide area rather than concentrating them at the fixing points.
lewis
he did tell me what the shocks were pressurized to but l cant really remember might have been 12 bar but not sure, l think some more runs are planed to try different pressures out, l assume pressure affects ride height as well as handling ?
as for the excavators the 812 is my old favorite, slow but sure, its easy to see why jcb lost out to the jap machines they are like racing cars compared to my old baby, down at the other end of the field l keep the o&k same size and weight as the 812 ( 13 tons ) but the levers are all **** about face made it really difficult to learn at first as l use both machines regularly but the human brain is so clever that l can now hop from machine to machine and operate them with out thinking about it, but you should have seen the carnage whilst l was learning, devastation everywhere
andy
Last edited by baloo on Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lewis Winch Assistant
Joined: 24 Jul 2007 Odometer: 85
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:19 am Post subject:
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12bar Nitrogen pressure equates to 174psi, which gives a spring rate of 192lbs/inch, which feels quite high for a buggy of 500kilo. Looking at the photo's of it sat on level ground the airshox appear to be at approximately 10 inch extension, if not more.
If we assume that the airshox is at exactly 10inch extension, and the pressure is 12bar then the sprung weight of the buggy is actually 3072lbs or 1393 kilo, which obviously is incorrect
If we assume that the buggy is 500kg with an even distribution of mass then to have the airshox compressed by 4" at ride height the airshox should be pressurised to 62psi, to give 68.75lbs/inch
Obviously the calc above does not account for uneven distribution of weight, the weight of the driver, or indeed the distribution of mass between unsprung and sprung.
Having said that my calculations may be fundamentally flawed
There is an in depth tech article relating to Airshox on Pirate
Link: http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Airshox/index.html
If your man is intending to compete in comp safari he should take a look at the Pirate forums - there has been much discussion regarding the suitability of Airshox for speed events. They do suffer from heat fade
Baloo: Thanks for the photo, look like its in better condition than our machine - we have an earlier 20ton 807 - I know what you mean about the controls - when swapping between the JCB and a modern machine with ISO pattern levers it can get a bit hairy at times
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baloo Articulating
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Odometer: 942 Location: Redditch
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:12 am Post subject:
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l would imagine most of us have been here at some stage
andy
Last edited by baloo on Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Diesel Destroyer Mud Obsessed
Joined: 27 Jan 2006 Odometer: 6921 Location: Under the truck covered in EP90
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:58 am Post subject:
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Im glad he decided against using a dog as a steering wheel and went for the more commanly used wheel..
__________________________________ Link to my current project build thread
http://muddybuggy.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=45&start=80 |
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Steveb Gate Opener
Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Odometer: 44 Location: Suffolk
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject:
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Thats a superbly engineered comp motor Andy , lots of thought gone into that. Would love to know the wieght of it , certainly looks light. What sort of dia/wall thickness is the cage?
When and where will he be taking it out to compete?
Cheers
Steve
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baloo Articulating
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Odometer: 942 Location: Redditch
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject:
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hi folks
mark has sent me the specs of his machine, copied straight over from his email,
1.2 m think about that for a bit
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
for the record you could cut and paste in the following if you like ...
YJ 410 axles, diffs inverted to reverse drive, Front and rear roll
centres
450mm (ie near C of G axis), Low as possible C of G. Sump, battery, bum
etc
all on the floor pan.
YJ 410 drive shafts swapped front and rear, YJ 410 RHD steering box
swapped
to other side, had to make steering arm from water cut 30mm plate !
14" Fox air shox via Milner, 7 Bar fronts, 11 Bar rear running on Argon
at
the moment. Can change oils to tune damping. Can get any wheel about
1.2m
off the ground without lifting the other 3 ... Had to use metro ball
joints
where rose joints didn't have enough angle!
Citroen BX 1600 all ally engine and gearbox, wiring nigthmare.
Daihatsu
cooling pack.
3mm 303 series ally tub, 38mm CDS roll hoops, All wishbones 28mm CDS,
All
brackets and tube 2mm thick.
Weight reduction ideas include: No chassis, no transfer case, no
springs, no
boosters, no steering pump, no transmission or foot brake, 1/2 width
cage,
drilled discs, turned down hubs and drums, 1 gallon tank (still to come
are
dry battery and alloy wheels)
Please ask if anyone out there has some locking diffs !
I attach a few last pics that I have which show the axle travel etc.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
any body got any locking diffs for sale ?
l assume he means arb's as lock rights wouldn't un lock on the mud to allow the fiddles to work
and l will post up some more pics later tonight
andy
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baloo Articulating
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Odometer: 942 Location: Redditch
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:09 pm Post subject:
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hi steveb
there you go, 38mm cds tube, ask and you will be answered, well partially any way since l don't know how heavy it is or when it will go out on its first event.
but l will be over on sat to collect my unimog,
lewis there you go 7 bar and 11 bar on argon ( does that make a difference then ) going back to excavators l am on the look out for a bigger machine 20 ton plus or perhaps a bull dozer to carve a track out with
diesel destroyer
whats wrong with furry steering wheel covers, l see enough about someone must like em,
andy
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baloo Articulating
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Odometer: 942 Location: Redditch
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:22 pm Post subject:
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..
Last edited by baloo on Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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baloo Articulating
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Odometer: 942 Location: Redditch
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject:
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and a couple more
Last edited by baloo on Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Steveb Gate Opener
Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Odometer: 44 Location: Suffolk
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:25 am Post subject:
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baloo wrote: | hi steveb
there you go, 38mm cds tube, ask and you will be answered, well partially any way since l don't know how heavy it is or when it will go out on its first event.
but l will be over on sat to collect my unimog,
andy |
See you saturday then . If you bring your camera you can get some photos of the front engine mount and rear body mounts.Its all stripped and ready.
back on topic , thanks for the spec list, keep the info /pic's coming this build is setting new standards for comp 4x4s.
cheers
Steveb
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baloo Articulating
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Odometer: 942 Location: Redditch
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:45 am Post subject:
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4 more
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Diesel Destroyer Mud Obsessed
Joined: 27 Jan 2006 Odometer: 6921 Location: Under the truck covered in EP90
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baloo Articulating
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Odometer: 942 Location: Redditch
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:00 am Post subject:
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alan
should there be a can't in there somewhere ?
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Diesel Destroyer Mud Obsessed
Joined: 27 Jan 2006 Odometer: 6921 Location: Under the truck covered in EP90
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:08 am Post subject:
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Cant wait to drag him out of it and drive off into the sunset in it??
lol
Im like a little kid.. my face aches from smiling..
__________________________________ Link to my current project build thread
http://muddybuggy.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=45&start=80 |
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big_patrol Mud Obsessed
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 Odometer: 2620 Location: Rossendale
1998 Nissan patrol
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:31 am Post subject:
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this is by far the greatest thing i have ever seen on differs i want one.
__________________________________ Everybody welcome to trials club, visit www.ncortc.com every third sunday of the month |
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suzukishrek Mud Obsessed
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Odometer: 2815 Location: Derbyshire
1995 Toyota Landcruiser
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:24 pm Post subject:
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That is...
It's absolutely...
And I just...
Ooooh, plhewreghhh * pauses to wipe up dribble and shut mouth *.
I've just become very hard of English as I can't find the words. WOW. Like. Want. Need. Must have.
I'm on my way down to you now Andy.
__________________________________ Graham.
=============================
Want to play offroad? Visit www.paynplay.co.uk to find offroad playsites. |
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baloo Articulating
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Odometer: 942 Location: Redditch
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:30 pm Post subject:
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hi graham
you got a wet key board as well, dribble dribble, you are welcome to come down and see me any time, however the buggy is not here, if it were l wouldn't be posting pictures of it, l would be out driving it,
Last edited by baloo on Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:32 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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suzukishrek Mud Obsessed
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Odometer: 2815 Location: Derbyshire
1995 Toyota Landcruiser
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:47 pm Post subject:
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baloo wrote: | ...you are welcome to come down and see me any time |
Cheers lad, much appreciated and it's a shame we missed each other last time - I think I was going South as you were going North.
baloo wrote: | however the buggy is not here, if it were l wouldn't be posting pictures of it, l would be out driving it, |
Well, that's just another excuse to get it there again then.
baloo wrote: | interestingly mark has all the dimension's and cut files on cd !!! so it wouldn't be difficult to produce another or several !! |
Ooh, now that gives me an idea... in fact in breathes new life into an old idea actually. Yep, I'll definitely have to pop down and see you at some point.
__________________________________ Graham.
=============================
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bum_face Just got MTs
Joined: 20 Sep 2007 Odometer: 101 Location: bacup
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:39 pm Post subject:
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lookin goood
__________________________________ "that wont go up there" red rag to a bull |
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Kitesurf Difflock Royalty
Joined: 28 Feb 2005 Odometer: 14197 Location: Luton, Beds
1994 Toyota Surf
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject:
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When you say no transfer box, is it a front wheel drive engine with one drive shaft going to each axle diff?
That buggy has to be the most innovative machine in the UK (or even Europe - I don't suppose there is anything like it across the pond either).
I don't know what it is doing to other people but it is getting the idea cogs whirring around in my brainbox.
__________________________________ Motorist who drove his 4x4 up Snowdon sentenced to appear on Top Gear. |
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suzukishrek Mud Obsessed
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Odometer: 2815 Location: Derbyshire
1995 Toyota Landcruiser
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:18 pm Post subject:
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kitesurf (Phil) wrote: | When you say no transfer box, is it a front wheel drive engine with one drive shaft going to each axle diff? |
I read it that way too Phil and it's not a new subject, hell even I brought it up in a diesel engine and gearbox thread some while back... and I can't claim original ownership of the idea. Don't forget the diff is welded too.
kitesurf (Phil) wrote: | I don't know what it is doing to other people but it is getting the idea cogs whirring around in my brainbox. |
Oh yes Phil, oh yes. Watch this space.
__________________________________ Graham.
=============================
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Kitesurf Difflock Royalty
Joined: 28 Feb 2005 Odometer: 14197 Location: Luton, Beds
1994 Toyota Surf
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:37 pm Post subject:
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I know we were discussing the idea about 18 months ago, heck I even suggested it on the Surf forum...................... oh how they laughed.
__________________________________ Motorist who drove his 4x4 up Snowdon sentenced to appear on Top Gear. |
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Nigel Head Mud Obsessed
Joined: 05 Jul 2004 Odometer: 3886 Location: Mid Devon
1990 Suzuki Samurai
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:26 pm Post subject:
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I read it as a transverse engine & box, turned through 90 degress to run the drive fore & aft, with welded transverse diff, thereby in effect like the t-box on std zook, with no centre diff.
Axles still have open diffs, so no big issue off road.
I'm quietly impressed with the innovation and of the engineering.
Nigel.
__________________________________ Heck - it's only a hobby!
Last edited by Nigel Head on Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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baloo Articulating
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Odometer: 942 Location: Redditch
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:36 pm Post subject:
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hi phil
yes you read it correctly, it is a front wheel drive engine and box turned round 90 deg and the diff welded up to ensure that drive goes to both the front and back axle of the buggy, as graham says the idea is not new. in fact very little is new in the automotive world, what sets this build apart is marks engineering skills, attention to detail and the desire to be as light as possible, the main reason for choosing the Citroen engine was its weight or lack of it to be more precise, there are many more engines out there that will provide much greater power, such as vauxhall 2lt 16v red top, ford zetec, Toyota mr2 1.6 or 2 lt, or even rover/Honda 2.7 V6 24v, but most of these engines would twist the poor old 410 half shafts up like toffee, so you would need bigger axles and so the circle continues, the axles were chosen as the lightest easily available
and the same with the engine, the props are also standard 410 items, so easily replaced should they fail, interestingly standard suzuki props when mated up to the Citroen gear box produce a wheel base of 79" which is 1 " greater than the minimum allowed by the awdc so 79" it is then.
h'mm Honda 2.7 V6 24v be in the super car bracket l would think
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Lewis Winch Assistant
Joined: 24 Jul 2007 Odometer: 85
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:49 pm Post subject:
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Using a transverse engine and box mounted longitudinally is hardly a new concept
Many triallers use this arrangement
I friend has been trialling a Jimny based tube frame buggy with this arrangemet for over 2 years IIRC
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Barnyzuki Guest
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:59 pm Post subject:
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The single cage with the engine and gearbox as the passenger side scares me.
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suzukishrek Mud Obsessed
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Odometer: 2815 Location: Derbyshire
1995 Toyota Landcruiser
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:12 pm Post subject:
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Lewis wrote: | Using a transverse engine and box mounted longitudinally is hardly a new concept |
And nobody here is claiming it is a new concept! However, the way the truck has been brought together as a whole is what everybody is raving about rather than individual concepts.
Barnyzuki wrote: | The single cage with the engine and gearbox as the passenger side scares me. |
What - as opposed to an engine in the front (because that's safer ) and probably no cage as is the case with the vast majority of trucks?
__________________________________ Graham.
=============================
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Lewis Winch Assistant
Joined: 24 Jul 2007 Odometer: 85
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:41 pm Post subject:
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suzukishrek © wrote: | Lewis wrote: | Using a transverse engine and box mounted longitudinally is hardly a new concept |
And nobody here is claiming it is a new concept! |
The last few posts read like you are all congratulating yourselves on having thought it up
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